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Old 02-17-2017, 10:09 AM   #18126
BigPavelski
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
Playing 25/50 and making millions is delusions of grandeur. A) do you even know how often 25/50 runs? B) do you realize how hard it is to make millions playing poker?
+1

I mean it's possible to make 6figs playing 2/5, definitely possible playing 5/10 and higher . Dude higher stakes than that aren't everyday things for the most part and when they are you're going to be playing against some of the best of the best .

Making millions playing cash games is a pretty far fetched fantasy my man
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:39 AM   #18127
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Get a job. It's the most +EV way to make money when you don't have a BR. Ideally, one would go to school, get a solid career started and play poker on the side. When you get the itch to go pro, take a sabbatical from work and play for some time to see if you can actually do it. The biggest thing is to make sure you have options. So many people think they can crush, realization sets in and they're stuck with crap dead end jobs because they had no way out. Rule #1: always have an exit strategy. That goes for every situation in life.






Second boom anyone??? We can all hope, right? Using my one time here....





You should google "Dunning-Krueger". You think your skill level is of a 2/5 player based on the results of a youtuber who is not telling you 100% of the story. Hell, he might not even be a winning player. It sounds like you've never even played 2/5 - specifically because you would have said you've played 2/5 instead of using a youtuber as your comparison. Just because you think you're that good watching it on your laptop, it's a lot different when your trying to make a decision and if you're wrong it's money out of your pocket.

Playing 25/50 and making millions is delusions of grandeur. A) do you even know how often 25/50 runs? B) do you realize how hard it is to make millions playing poker?
I just based that off 1 guy playing poker for a job and his quite poor decisions.

I've only played 2/5 once because that was the only game that ran at the casino I was near after winning $1,400 at a .25/.50c house game a few nights recipes

I have no problem putting money in the pot, I can easily distancee chips from actual money AS LONG as I have a seperate account for poker/the lmoney I stand to lose isn't a significant portion of my bank.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:40 AM   #18128
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Anyway, I'm willing to extract my head from my ass on the baseline numbers.
LOL, good stuff

+1 for getting a job. Wait until you have a year where you made twice as much playing poker than you did at your job then maybe consider playing. How far is the card room from your place? I work across the street from where I play. It is really nice to know that every two weeks I am getting a check along with benefits (insurance, pto, 401k ect). I figure with all my benefits it adds about 25% onto my base salary. Making that kind of money would be tough on a 4k bankroll. For the time being I am having fun studying and playing the game. The extra cash is nice to have and even better knowing that I don't have to worry about when my Kings getting cracked by 22s and I can't pay rent, ect. Take the time to build a bankroll while you have no real bills
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:48 AM   #18129
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I just based that off 1 guy playing poker for a job and his quite poor decisions.

I've only played 2/5 once because that was the only game that ran at the casino I was near after winning $1,400 at a .25/.50c house game a few nights recipes

I have no problem putting money in the pot, I can easily distancee chips from actual money AS LONG as I have a seperate account for poker/the lmoney I stand to lose isn't a significant portion of my bank.
I really appreciate your passion, and wish I were 23 again. However, this seems a bit naďve, like someone who does well at a game of pickup basketball and wants to join the NBA, or takes care of their sick nephew and wants to be a doctor.

I think you have to recognize that a huge number of people would like to make a living from playing poker. While people who do so say it's a grind, it sure sounds more fun/sexier than other 9-5 grinds, because you're playing a game rather than working. I sit at a desk all day and would certainly rather be at a poker table. So why don't all these people play poker for a living? Is it just because they didn't have the courage to chase their dreams? I don't think so. I think it's because making a living playing poker is very hard, and making a living with which you could support a family is even harder. What reason other than desire to you have to believe that you'd be in the top 1% or so of poker players?

I think there's a thread somewhere by DGIHarris about becoming a pro in poker. It's designed to show how hard it is and how much work it takes. I'd suggest reading it.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:51 AM   #18130
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LOL, good stuff

+1 for getting a job. Wait until you have a year where you made twice as much playing poker than you did at your job then maybe consider playing. How far is the card room from your place? I work across the street from where I play. It is really nice to know that every two weeks I am getting a check along with benefits (insurance, pto, 401k ect). I figure with all my benefits it adds about 25% onto my base salary. Making that kind of money would be tough on a 4k bankroll. For the time being I am having fun studying and playing the game. The extra cash is nice to have and even better knowing that I don't have to worry about when my Kings getting cracked by 22s and I can't pay rent, ect. Take the time to build a bankroll while you have no real bills
3 casinos anywhere from 15-45 minute drive from my place I already have full health insurance/benefits being in the military reserves, along with a bit of side income. My annual income where I'm from (Vancouver) is like 22k/year, $850 biweekly is peasant money that I absolutely can't stand after living in Australia making $24/hour in an entry level position that I had no previous work experience before.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:55 AM   #18131
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

People don't understand the effort that goes into being a top notch pro.

You're not grinding soft weekend games, you're playing weekday pros and retire nits. Meaning you're going to have to learn to play a high variance game vs pros or squeek out garbage win-rates besides the weekend.

A couple months of losing during the week but winning on the weekend, let's see how you like that.


I run a business and play poker. If you want to make a lot of money, a business will do just that. You want to limit your upside? Play poker.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:04 AM   #18132
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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It's something I really want to take a shot at. I have backup careers and free schooling available to me already, but I'm not as keen on them as I am poker. I've played for about 3 years now, and taken the game seriously for over a year, my goal isn't just crushing 2/5 I want to play 25/50 one day, make millions of dollars, and right now in my life is the perfect time to take an actual shot at this.
This mathematically isn't really possible. Some may know better, but I don't think these games even run regularly. Plus you'd likely be playing against mostly top pros with some mixed in biz executes. So even assuming you have a 10 BB/hr WR against heavy weighted pro table, which I think most agree is extremely good and assuming you play 40 hours a week every week in a year would get you just over a million, but factoring in Uncle Sam gets you closer to $700k. Realistically, you'll be a small BB winner, like most others at the table, making in the low-6's if your really good.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:12 AM   #18133
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I thought our Hero would be very happy with 150k+ a year and is not aiming for 1 million a year.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:14 AM   #18134
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I just based that off 1 guy playing poker for a job and his quite poor decisions.

I've only played 2/5 once because that was the only game that ran at the casino I was near after winning $1,400 at a .25/.50c house game a few nights recipes

I have no problem putting money in the pot, I can easily distancee chips from actual money AS LONG as I have a seperate account for poker/the lmoney I stand to lose isn't a significant portion of my bank.
I honestly mean when I say go for it. Crush it. Follow your dreams. But your basing your thoughts around a super super small sample size and some rando youtuber. Before you decide to quite everything, I highly recommend pursing your career, while playing poker on side and think about quiting in your later 20’s. This gives you several important advantages. 1) You will likely be building a decent BR by them through your day job. And 2) You create a natural hedge for yourself. If you get the wrong side of variance, you can dip your toe back in the corporate world for steady money as you build your BR back up and increase your skills.

Late 20’s is not 65 years old. My point is you can afford to be patient. By quitting now with what seems like not a ton of poker experience at the stakes you want to play (beating up your friends at your home game does not count) and little BR to absorb variance, you have an extremely small chance of making it. HOWEVER, following some form of advice I outlined above or others on here I think greatly increases your chance of making it.

You can follow your dreams, but you don’t have to do it recklessly. Take a disciplined, thoughtful, goal-oriented approach and I think you increase your Life BB/hr by a tremendous amount IMO.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:15 AM   #18135
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I thought our Hero would be very happy with 150k+ a year and is not aiming for 1 million a year.
idk maybe, but he said this, " want to play 25/50 one day, make millions of dollars, and right now in my life is the perfect time to take an actual shot at this"
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:17 AM   #18136
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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This mathematically isn't really possible. Some may know better, but I don't think these games even run regularly. Plus you'd likely be playing against mostly top pros with some mixed in biz executes. So even assuming you have a 10 BB/hr WR against heavy weighted pro table, which I think most agree is extremely good and assuming you play 40 hours a week every week in a year would get you just over a million, but factoring in Uncle Sam gets you closer to $700k. Realistically, you'll be a small BB winner, like most others at the table, making in the low-6's if your really good.
There is a 25/50 and 50/100 NL game that runs semi regularly (twice a week?) where I play. I know a couple of the players. Trust me that nobody is winning anywhere near 10BB/hr in that game. Beating that game for 3BB/hr would be incredibly good but that is a game where you will truly never know your actual win rate due to massive variance and the fact that it would take you many years to get 2000+ hrs in.
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Old 02-17-2017, 11:58 AM   #18137
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Turtol,

Are your parents supportive of you pursuing poker for a career? Will you be able to stay there for free while playing poker full time?

If the answer to both questions is yes, then there will probably never be a better time in your life to give it a shot.

Keep in mind though, realistically, you will probably fail. You are getting a lot of well meaning advice in this thread from people who understand that. As long as you are mentally prepared for failure, then I say go for it. Get a job first and build up your bankroll. Don't chase your losses and don't take on debt that you will regret later in your life. There will probably never come another time in your life where you can take a shot where you can fail and not cause a lot of distress to you and/or others.

But if you are going to do it, do it seriously. Keep records. Keep a poker bankroll separate from your life roll. Take notes. Study hands in your down time. Post hands and participate in discussions in this forum. Manage your tilt. Understand when you are not on your A game and understand what causes you to not be on your A game. Work to fix those leaks. Constantly be plugging all of your leaks. Keep a strict budget. Don't spend lavishly when you are on an upswing. Figure out exactly what your monthly cost of living will be and try not to spend more than that. Figure out how much you have to play to cover your monthly nut plus grow your bankroll, but understand that you need to have the bankroll to cover the inevitable variance.

I'd recommend getting a job and saving up $10,000-$15,000 before you start this seriously. If you buckle down, it shouldn't take long since you have no expenses.

Good luck.
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Old 02-17-2017, 12:13 PM   #18138
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yeah to build up a roll for poker, could take as little as 3 months depending how aggressive you are at making money outside of poker. As well as how much you want to feel good enough to give it a real shot.

I am always a big fan of non full-time and weekend warrior.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:32 PM   #18139
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Turtol,

Don't chase your losses and don't take on debt that you will regret later in your life.

Good luck.
This is good advice. If you fail debt free at a young age, all is good. Nh, gg. If you fail at a young age and have racked up a large amount of debt....no buon.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:17 PM   #18140
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+1 to the "youtube boom!"

Pokeron youtube has absolutely blown up and its getting people hyped about live poker. I think it's having a great effect on the game, despite the fact that a lot of those vids "talk strat" (people are still bad and don't know how to apply it)
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:47 PM   #18141
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Everyone loves poker when they win how much you love it when you lost buy-in after buy-in is what will make you and how you react.
Or running marginally good to awful for 2-4 months and getting nowhere. It's great when you go on a run and pick up 20BI in a month. That just doesn't happen all the time.

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Amen to that. Ive left a poker room talking to myself a few times.
I *always* leave the poker room/casino muttering to myself and looking pissed off. Less likely they roll the guy that just lost his ass in the parking garage than the grinning idiot.

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Man, to be 23 again.
Remember, you're only as old as the woman you're banging.

In regard to the whole extended BR / going pro / job discussion. I'd suggest getting a low impact job, making some money, and playing part time for a while at peak hours. See how that goes for a year or two and re-evaluate.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:10 PM   #18142
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Lol because you can grind 5kNL for 40 hrs a week while 10bb/100 wr...
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:38 PM   #18143
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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I really want to take a big shot at playing live poker. My main problem is lack of a bankroll, I'm nearly done a year of travelling and when I get home I want to build a bankroll ($4,000) and take a shot at playing full time. Does anyone have tips for someone who is 23 years old to build up a bankroll? I have the luxury of living with my parents rent free as long as I'm pursuing something.

I was thinking some sort of job not at home for a few months to make tons of money to support my living expenses aswell as have a $4,000 br to play 1/2 (I wouldn't mind working a weekend job for living expenses with $4,000 to play with.

Here are a few skills I have, card dealer (croupier) can deal most table games and very high limit baccarat, cocktail bartender, currently with the Canadian armed forces aswell on a year off.

Someone suggest being a croupier on a cruise ship which actually sounds pretty good, are there any other jobs that anyone can think of to just grind out a bunch of money? Some jobs out of the ordinary where money is the only goal.

Or would people advocate a full time job near a casino and just take 2 buyin shots every other week?

Sorry if this is the wrong forum to put this!

I really want to build up a bankroll as I think my skill level would be sufficient to play 2/5 with a decent win rate (basing this off that one young youtuber that plays 2/5 for a living and his hands all seem quite poorly played, yet still turns a profit.)

E/ the YouTube I meant is Brad Owen
It sounds like you're thinking along decent lines. Having made the poker-for-a-living jump before, here's some post-mortem advice:

I jumped into playing poker for a living wildly under-rolled (~30BI). Do not - do *not* - do this. It worked out for me in the medium-term, but there were periods of absolute misery during downswings that I can't even begin to describe.

If you're playing for a living, you don't want to be playing with your life-roll. You want to be playing with a cushy bankroll that you can withdraw from every 3 months or so to create a modest income.

You shouldn't even consider playing poker full-time for a living until you have a 6 months to a year of living expenses in savings as a life-roll, are a proven, sustainable winner in your games (which is not hard to achieve, but requires time and practice and patience, and frankly there are a lot of people who are not cut out for it), and have a bankroll that can sustain serious variance.

Having gone back to school for a B.S. in computer science after playing poker professionally, I'll say that I enjoy poker a lot more now that I work full-time as a software engineer. it's magical and stable and profitable and not playing a negative-sum game for a living. I've just gotten back into making a modest side income playing live, but the game is *so* much easier and more enjoyable to play when I don't stress about downswings. If I were to do it over, I can't say I'd play it differently, but I'd give a long hard think to investing in a skill.

I don't regret playing poker for a living for a few years. It gave me a lot of freedom. I do regret not setting myself up properly for it before I started.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:41 PM   #18144
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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Having gone back to school for a B.S. in computer science after playing poker professionally, I'll say that I enjoy poker a lot more now that I work full-time as a software engineer. it's magical and stable and profitable and not playing a negative-sum game for a living. I've just gotten back into making a modest side income playing live, but the game is *so* much easier and more enjoyable to play when I don't stress about downswings.
This is the nut line, imo.

GwellplayedG
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:28 PM   #18145
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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Originally Posted by SameRiverTwice View Post

If you're playing for a living, you don't want to be playing with your life-roll. You want to be playing with a cushy bankroll that you can withdraw from every 3 months or so to create a modest income.

You shouldn't even consider playing poker full-time for a living until you have a 6 months to a year of living expenses in savings as a life-roll
This is faulty thinking. In the finance world its called mental accounting. You shouldn't compartmentalize money. Sum LR and BR. They are the same. Money is fungible.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:37 PM   #18146
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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This is faulty thinking. In the finance world its called mental accounting. You shouldn't compartmentalize money. Sum LR and BR. They are the same. Money is fungible.
Nothing wrong with compartmentalising money for poker players.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:07 PM   #18147
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Re: Building a live poker bankroll

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This is faulty thinking. In the finance world its called mental accounting. You shouldn't compartmentalize money. Sum LR and BR. They are the same. Money is fungible.
A professional poker player needs a risk-management strategy that will leave them free to pay their basic life expenses (food, rent, tuition, mortgage, insurance, car payment, loan repayments, whatever) and probably find temporary employment outside of poker if they lose their roll. Feel free to suggest alternatives.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:58 PM   #18148
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What I am saying is this.

When I was an investment consultant a few years ago, we had a client come in that wanted to open an account with us for a quarter million to "gamble". He had another larger account with another firm that was his "safer portfolio" that he needed to rely on for investment income. He wanted to leverage up and take hefty risks with our account. As much as I loved to have his money, I tried to explain to him it was incorrect to think your other account has completely separate and low risk while your taking huge risky bets here. You most look at it as one portfolio and not two because you are taking more risk than you can afford. One expected return and one standard deviation, not two separate. I told him if he wanted to take risky bets here, he would have to lower risk in his other account to keep his risk tolerance aligned to his goals.

Certainly not an apples to apples comparison, but I do believe it apply's here too.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:09 PM   #18149
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm a 40-something white dude, 2 teenagers, married 23 years. I've been in IT for 20 years, and have made over 6 figures for well over half my career and am comfortably heading towards the freedom to retire by 55. I kinda scratch my head an kids (at least in the USA) who have the skill set to crush live poker, but chose to use those skills to eek out a living in what can be a soul-crushing profession. You guys could easily crush IT for 6 figures, especially in today's economy. Technology changes so rapidly, and it's a rare thing among general society to find people with the temperament to not only adapt to the changing landscape, but to thrive in it. The qualities that allow a poker player to adapt to not only situational play, but to general trends in the poker economy at large are the same qualities that would have you rapidly out-pacing your peers.

I'm not against playing as a profession, but it's the cart before the horse, imo. The opportunity cost of putting a potential career on hold to pursue poker is far greater than putting poker on hold (or relegating it to a part time hobby) while you establish your career.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:10 PM   #18150
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by 23LBJ23 View Post
What I am saying is this.

When I was an investment consultant a few years ago, we had a client come in that wanted to open an account with us for a quarter million to "gamble". He had another larger account with another firm that was his "safer portfolio" that he needed to rely on for investment income. He wanted to leverage up and take hefty risks with our account. As much as I loved to have his money, I tried to explain to him it was incorrect to think your other account has completely separate and low risk while your taking huge risky bets here. You most look at it as one portfolio and not two because you are taking more risk than you can afford. One expected return and one standard deviation, not two separate. I told him if he wanted to take risky bets here, he would have to lower risk in his other account to keep his risk tolerance aligned to his goals.

Certainly not an apples to apples comparison, but I do believe it apply's here too.
There's a difference between gambling and then playing poker professionally as your main income. The notion of a bankroll is important. Whether you have a 10k bankroll and a 10k liferoll and go from there or a 20k liferoll that doubles as a bankroll, really doesn't matter much.

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I would bet my entire life on the fact that no one has ever made 100k a year playing 2/5 live. Period. Regardless of hours, game selection, deeper games, it's never been done.
Are you free for a prop bet in 2018?
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