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Old 01-25-2017, 04:04 PM   #17851
spirit123
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
FWIW I agree alot with what he says and to keep it to winrates, I'd say it has alot to do with area and room.

I'd play poker as a breakeven player recreationally in Daytona. I'd need to make $300 an hour to play in Hialeah.

You just run into different groups and different types of people in different places, and while some places are casual and fun, many are scummy. In my experience.

I have actually sacrificed wr to play in rooms I prefer (but theorethically maybe not bc I'm not on tilt or I'm safer in the parking lot etc.)
I actually think I'm overexaggerating here as to the people aspect. There are a few people I'm very friendly with -- there are a couple hedge fund guys that run multibillion dollar funds that are really awesome guys. They play relatively well too so my wr suffers when they're at the table. But they are real pleasant to be around. A couple other guys who do this recreationally and splash around, real fun guys, even when they complain about bad beats, I can deal with. And sometimes I have a chuckle inside.

It's actually amazing because if some people like you, they will tell you how they play in great detail, and they'll tell you what they had or show you their cards.

It's just the few regulars who have bad etiquette that gets on my nerves. Like theres this one guy, let's call him g. When he tilts he spews off literally 4-6 buy-ins in a few hours. He's good for wr and I've owned him in the past. But he's an angleshooter and slowroller. Every chance he gets hell try to push the rules. BUT as soon as another person does something he doesn't like, he'll call them out on it and especially when it's his money on the line, he'll call floor.

He doesn't like me now because I called him out on it in front of the whole table several times once. And he was whining to the floor saying (literally), "he can't tell people what I'm doing." I get happy when I see him lose. That's an unwholesome state of mind, to be happy for another's person's pain.

Another thing that is bad for my emotional winrate is people coming back reeking of smoke. It's something I'll never really get over I guess bc it's just such an unpleasant smell.

As to my being inexperienced in life: yes relative to people who are older. I'm late 20s. ive probably traveled more than most people will in their entirr lives. I've run my own businesses. I used to tutor lots of kids. I've worked in silicon valley in a startup. I think what's most shaped me is being around monks and meditating with spiritual masters. I will always remember their purity and generosity and kindness and love. I yearn to be authentic myself and the first step is to remove myself from environments where deception and hatred are the norms.

And I really think emotional winrate is an important idea. We have to live with ourselves and if we are not happy, no matter how much money we have, were going to have regrets. I'd rather live a life without regret.

And another thing I miss is working in groups and teams. There's something about poker that makes us extremely self centered. It's every man for himself and it feels animalistic at times. There are different types of intelligence and while intellectual and mathematical ability can lead to higher winrates, i think emotional intelligence and relational intelligence lead to a happier life. Not to say that the latter are not used in poker, but I see mine declining the more I play. Gotta put a stop to it.

Last edited by spirit123; 01-25-2017 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:36 AM   #17852
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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It's actually amazing because if some people like you, they will tell you how they play in great detail, and they'll tell you what they had or show you their cards.
This 100%, happens to me nearly every day. There's so much equity in just being a nice person -- not only for yourself but for the poker economy as a whole. Especially important for winning players to set an example and shun anybody who creates a negative atmosphere.

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He doesn't like me now because I called him out on it in front of the whole table several times once.
sorry, had to call you out on that


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I get happy when I see him lose. That's an unwholesome state of mind, to be happy for another's person's pain.

Another thing that is bad for my emotional winrate is people coming back reeking of smoke.

Yeah I agree with both of these, I have a very similar experience as well -- though I can at least pinpoint where the happiness derives from. It's not necessarily his pain that causes me joy, but rather the more he loses the less likely it is I have to see him next time, and I would be very happy if he just never played their again. He always makes the game very unpleasant, single handedly.
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Old 01-26-2017, 12:39 PM   #17853
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
So I guess that's really what I'm getting at. Is the low hanging fruit in live PLO such that a "similarly sized" (loosely interpret as needed) PLO game going to generate a bigger hourly for a solid PLO player given the reduction in hands/hr. ?
I would say yes because of the sheer number of pots that exceed 200bb. At a really good NL game on a weekend night, maybe you see 4 per hour? In every PLO I've ever played in, at least three people are ai for stacks at least 4 times per DOWN.

Also every hand is limped min 6 eays, and opens are generally flatted at least 4-5 ways. No one except the good regs are.doing anything other than potting, so things bloat quickly.

I played an 800bb pot where we got 750bb of it In ott, because I checked back top set on Q83r, against KJ33r.

Last edited by scelsi; 01-26-2017 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 01-26-2017, 01:31 PM   #17854
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

We were just talking about swings, so just I ran up $890 in 9 hours, then immediately down $850 in the next 9 hours. #StillSlightlyAhead.

Frustrating when our $1/2 games switch to RxR then straight PLO and I'm not rolled to get into the game for $1500 in a night. Saw a $2500+ pot get shipped to two flopped pair in PLO last night. Action like that easily makes up for the decrease in hand count.
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Old 01-26-2017, 01:52 PM   #17855
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

This is making me want to play PLO so bad. What kind of a bankroll is necessary to play 1|2|5, 1000 cap, for example? Is it really nitty to want $50k?
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Old 01-26-2017, 02:02 PM   #17856
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Not nitty at all. Easy to lose 5-10k in a day.

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Old 01-26-2017, 03:19 PM   #17857
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I wouldn't feel really comfortable playing my local PLO games without $15k handy to absorb swings. We mostly play $500 cap, but as the game gets deeper people are allowed to rebuy for more (doesn't happen often, but you'll see $1000 tossed on the table after a big hand). But instead I'm sitting with $2-3k in BR trying to make money on the NLHE rounds and pick spots for PLO.
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Old 01-26-2017, 03:23 PM   #17858
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

To give you an idea, was +14 on month for all my games.

I'm now -10

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Old 01-26-2017, 03:29 PM   #17859
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
Everyone is a coach now bra. No bring in but at least 50% of the time there is a $5 straddle on. In that case the full pot open is 19 obv. Some dealers will just let it be 20. Min buyin is 100; Max 500. At any given time there is prob 7-8k on table with a few OMC just nut peddling their dwindling stacks

Dealers are generally good. There are usually at least 3 PLO games going (2 2/2 and 1 5/5) often with more of those and weekend 10/25.



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based on tense used, do you think the above is still reality or just stating the conditions for your posted w/r? Winrates, bankrolls, and finances
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Old 01-26-2017, 07:03 PM   #17860
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Yeah, the cash is nice. No idea about std. It's probably on the lower end, I don't make too many big bluffs anymore. I do play draws strongly though and put lots of pressure on people. I've been bluff raising rivers more often vs people who fold too often and a scare card comes out. It's amazing how often people fold. But I think I'm General my game has become lower variance except for the few times a month where I spew like a dummy.

As to the other stuff: maybe I've played a bit too much but poker isn't so fun for me any more. Winning is super standard and doesn't raise my happiness levels much. Losing sucks still and even though i don't experience losing too much any more it still affects my ability to be friendly with people and in general exude joy.

Recently I've been having to pep talk myself into going to the casino. Casinos are not the most pleasant places to be. Lots of degenerates (probably myself included to some extent). It's just a sad place to be most of the time. It's the same story all the time. The same type of gossip. The same type of talk about bad beats and wishing for a jackpot. I feel this inner tightness often when the thought of sitting at the table for hours arises. The body knows when something is not the best for itself.

Being known as the biggest winner in the game has its pros and cons. The dealers and floor all love me bc I'm very kind to them and always help keep the game moving fast. But some of the other regs just avoid me in general and seem unhappy when I'm at the table. It's not the best feeling to know people are running away from me. I want people to like me and be friendly. I want to be someone who others want to be around.

Slimy comes is different forms. Gossiping, talking bad about others, angle shooting, smoking cigarettes every 30 minutes and coming back reeking, bad hygeine, needling, making people feel bad, celebrating winning pots, slowrolling, making others show a losing hand after someone says good call or you win. All these things I consider not pleasant to be around. It's mostly smallmindedness as in selfish and mean.

As to adding benefit to society, maybe I mean more it doesn't bring anybody true joy. It doesn't lead to better health, happier humans, better families. I notice it in myself. Winning no longer makes me happy. I always look back at the wrong decisions I made and am hard on myself for it. We don't need more hardness and hard human beings. Softness and easy goingness is where true happiness lies. For me poker makes me neither soft not easy going.
nice post
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Old 01-26-2017, 11:42 PM   #17861
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by homerdash View Post
based on tense used, do you think the above is still reality or just stating the conditions for your posted w/r? Winrates, bankrolls, and finances


I'm actually not sure. Haven't been playing as much PLO of late


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Old 01-26-2017, 11:52 PM   #17862
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I'm actually not sure. Haven't been playing as much PLO of late


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oh, well mdl plo is kinda dead since MGM opened. Nothing except the 2/2 runs now, and even that is hit or miss, usually only 1 game except maybe on weekends. 5/T NL rarely runs now too as you might expect
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Old 01-27-2017, 11:49 PM   #17863
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
This is making me want to play PLO so bad. What kind of a bankroll is necessary to play 1|2|5, 1000 cap, for example? Is it really nitty to want $50k?
Example: bring in 5, uth+1 pots to 23, 4 callers.

Flop (92) whatever

Checks to raiser who pots, two callers

Turn (368) two flush draws and four different wraps, oh and board is paired

Someone pots

Lose this hand twice and you're down almost 200bb.

Have that happen 4 times when you've done nothing wrong. That's 4k.
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Old 01-28-2017, 12:26 PM   #17864
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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if you are playing your normal poker game you should have 4 buyins per stake to lose per session and you should plan on losing 3-4 sessions in a row fairly often. If you can't stomach losing $5k then you're not rolled for 2/5. If you cant handle losing $3500 you're not rolled for 1/3 and if you can't lose $2k then dont play 1/2. all of the above swings are normal and happen regularly to winning players. I know a few 10bbhr winners and they all have had around 10buyin downswings. Be prepared and dont be upset when you lose $5k; its normal
I've got 1,589 hours across 183 sessions of 1/2 in my tracker app. Biggest downswing ever was 1.4k with 2 others at a little over 1k.

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Old 01-28-2017, 02:34 PM   #17865
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I've got 1,589 hours across 183 sessions of 1/2 in my tracker app. Biggest downswing ever was 1.4k with 2 others at a little over 1k.

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that's over an 8 hour average session, definitely not typical, and that seems like a great reason to mitigate downswings if you play long session where you're likely to get unstuck if stuck, or even just not as stuck.
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:41 PM   #17866
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that's over an 8 hour average session, definitely not typical, and that seems like a great reason to mitigate downswings if you play long session where you're likely to get unstuck if stuck, or even just not as stuck.
Ya I'm a serious weekend warrior with a career so tend to play long sessions when I get out. Very few sessions less than 5 hours.

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Old 01-28-2017, 07:56 PM   #17867
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by homerdash View Post
that's over an 8 hour average session, definitely not typical, and that seems like a great reason to mitigate downswings if you play long session where you're likely to get unstuck if stuck, or even just not as stuck.
I mean, logically it's all one session and it can go either way. But I get what you mean.

I'm in the same boat wrt weekend warrioring and long sessions. I almost always have 100bb swings within a session and 200bb swings are not unusual at all (for example, go from 0 to -150 to +50.) I think it would be more painful if my sessions were cut into 3-4 hour chunks and there were more bumps on my graph.

Actually, between employment that's just what I did, play frequent 3-4 hour sessions. And I'd often take days off after a mini-slump. Maybe there's a correlation.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:29 AM   #17868
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Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
I've got 1,589 hours across 183 sessions of 1/2 in my tracker app. Biggest downswing ever was 1.4k with 2 others at a little over 1k.

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Shouldn't have cursed myself with this post. Since posting you can add another 1.3k downswing over 27 hours to that list.

A handful of mistakes combined with more than far share of run bad can be expensive.

Just one hand like this can ruin your day 🙃

A,8 on board of A,A,8,3dd < Ad,Jd for 950 pot when river brings another J



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Old 01-30-2017, 01:14 PM   #17869
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Preliminary Jan results as I may not be able to play any more before the end of the month:

82.7 hours, $-714.50

All my regular local games are running more and more PLO or RxR, which is pretty detrimental to my results. Seems to be something about January too. Since 2007 when I started playing live I've only had *one* winning January (for $30). Could put up $3-10k in a year and still lose Jan. Probably just an odd small sample size thing.
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Old 01-30-2017, 03:18 PM   #17870
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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82.7 hours, $-714.50
You are on pace for a 1000 hour year, those are some serious rec hours! I'm only going to put in 1/2 of that.

My first session this month ended with me dropping $1000 in the final 2 hours to the local mega maniac.

My last session of the month, I get stacked on my very first hand in a limped pot.

Up $195 for the month, lol, poker is easy.

Gwinning!G
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:26 PM   #17871
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I usually don't get to put in that many hours, I'm typically around 600/yr.

Managed to get a good 25+ hours in on the New Years holiday weekend with a couple of long casino sessions. Then been degening at a few more home games than I usually do, getting 2-3 hours at a time 5 nights a week or so. "Free" beer and food helps motivate that. Will likely get closer to 40-50 hours next month.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:56 PM   #17872
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Live variance and goals

I'm trying to write up a plan for my live poker bankroll challenge, looking for realistic numbers for the plan.
10BB/Hour at 1/3 2/5 5/5 seems like a achievable goal?
Is 20 hands/ hour reasonable at most live card rooms?
For a part-time grinder, is 100 hours a month somewhat achievable?
Standard Deviation compare to online games?
What's a high rake?
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:38 PM   #17873
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Re: Live variance and goals

10BB /hr is probably a little over ambitious unless you are very good and you are playing the majority of hours at peak times.

Ive counted several times and average 40 hands/hr. Most people tend to think its 30-35 though.

Only you know how many hrs you can play, but Id be shocked if you got 100 if you have a real job.

No idea about online StdDev. Most people's live numbers are around 60-100BBs/hr

In S. Florida rake is $5 +$2. I dont consider that high. Probably avg.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:58 PM   #17874
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Re: Live variance and goals

I think that winrate is achievable but it depends, playing in peak times will make it easier but table selection and overall quality of the room will impact this.

My room says that if they get 25/hr they are doing well but I've never counted it myself. I'd be surprised to see 40/hr but my room isn't known for having quality dealers.

If you work full time, you'd be really pushing it if you still want to get enough sleep, exercise and have a social life. I work full time, go to gym 4 days per week and have a girlfriend and I struggle to get in more than 10-15 hours per week.

Not sure about standard deviation.

The rake in my room is 10% capped at $15 for $2/5 and I consider that high but still beatable. $5+$2 would be a dream haha

To summarise, it depends.


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Old 01-30-2017, 08:06 PM   #17875
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

@angrist what are your thoughts on home games vs playing at the casino in terms of expected winrate? I've been invited to some private games that have a lot less rake, plus perks like food, massages, drinks etc but I'm not sure that the game will be soft enough to justify playing there.

Sorry if this is a little bit too off topic for this thread.


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