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Old 01-17-2017, 06:01 PM   #17701
Avaritia
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If I had a 2 buy in stop loss I'd sure have some short sessions!

(I once got stacked back to back in my first 2 hands of a new 2/5 game, 100bbs each)

That said, a huge improvement to my game was setting a time I wanted to leave and sticking to it. I used to always say "well I was leaving at 11 but ZOMG this whale!" but you'll find if you do that you basically stay late everytime bc there's always good games.

And I play really, really bad when it gets past my bedtime.

I have a 3 buyin stop loss usually but an emergency 4th buy in if there's like a guy shoving blind or something. I usually just leave tho, again bc from experience it's what works best for me. Like sometimes even if you are still at the top of your mental game (you aren't) it's nice to shut the laptop and talk the dog for a walk.
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:29 PM   #17702
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If you lose 3 buyins in one session, it's time to call it a night.

If you're a LAG, it means you're just getting warmed up.
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Old 01-17-2017, 07:31 PM   #17703
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Hardball47 View Post
If you lose 3 buyins in one session, it's time to call it a night.

If you're a LAG, it means you're just getting warmed up.
IMO the only reason someone should leave a game is if A) it's no longer a good game or B) your playing poorly/tilting. This is what a bankroll is for. Stoploss b's should refer to B to solve.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:18 PM   #17704
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IMO the only reason someone should leave a game is if A) it's no longer a good game or B) your playing poorly/tilting. This is what a bankroll is for. Stoploss b's should refer to B to solve.
Yeah, if you're a machine or computer, keep on playing until you break the table singlehandedly.

If you're human, however, there will be a whole host of other variables that come into play. Fatigue, emotional states, focus and concentration levels, hunger etc.

This philosophy of keep playing if the games are good, regardless of other conditions or variables is rather shortsighted. Of course, you keep playing if it's good, but if something changes, like you start getting tired and start making fundamental errors as a result, then rack your chips and call it a night. There's no shame in leaving extra EV on the table. The games will always be there.

And besides, if you're good enough, any table you sit down at will be +EV for you. At least, it's like that for me at 1/2 & 2/5.

/shamelessbrag
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:19 PM   #17705
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I personally leave based on a few questions I ask myself during a session.

In no particular order.

1. Where is the money coming from on the table?
2. Are there players at this table that will make it significantly harder to win money from the bad players?
3. What is my mental state/how am I playing? So am I paying full attention? Am I tilting in anyway? Am I hungry? Etc
4. Do I have more than 25% of my bankroll on the table and can I lose all or most of my stack in a single hand? (Mainly concerned about being covered by a good player)

I read about the 25% rule on a forum somewhere and after a few sessions where I had like 7BI in front of me, I thought it would be useful to start following. Generally having a high number of buy ins is later in the session/night where I'll be playing a bit worse and deep stacked is an area I lack skill in.


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Old 01-17-2017, 09:57 PM   #17706
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yeah. That said IMO the EV of staying at a table with moby dick is really really difficult to pass up. I remember playing a 12 hour session a couple weeks back, I was about to rack up in half an hour and a couple whales sat down and started playing every hand. I was breakeven for the first 12 hours but I stuck around another 2 hours, despite being tired and hungry, to walk out +3buyins.

Now ofc playing for 14 hours straight isn't ideal but IMO if you don't have anything else to do the next day, sticking around for the free money is worth it. Which is why when I say I'm going to play a 10 hour session, it's 10 hours +-2 hours depending on the action. If Reggy/****/low profitability after 8 hours I'll often haul ass early. If juicy af after 10 hours and I'm not physically dead and there's a very good reason to keep playing, will stay an extra couple hours. Capping sessions at 12 hours IMO is a decent idea unless there is like top 2% of whales sat to your right.
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:10 PM   #17707
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I agree with you meale, it's all dependent and isn't as simple as "stop playing after dropping x number of BI". However, I'm not against setting hard limits for yourself when starting out because it's extremely difficult to be objective about your own play. I know a few people who have gone on downswings that they attribute purely to variance but after reviewing hands with them, they had major leaks that were being compounded by tilt.


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Old 01-17-2017, 10:59 PM   #17708
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Lot of good discussion on stop losses going on here.

Some points that I hope will help:

Ideally-stop when you're playing poorly or opponents are too good
-continue when you have the advantage (skill, image, alertness)

BUT it's simple but not so easy

Almost always us LLSNL players aren't aware of the "stop" conditions until it's too late. We don't realize our tilt level/poor play until the drive home, or we fool ourselves and never realize it at all.

Have you ever wondered how our play would look like to ourselves if there was a secret camera filming our play and we watched it played back? Each and every one of us would detect countless mistakes in our play. So many times we would say "what the frck was I trying to do there?"

So I dropped the old concept long ago of "play as long as I felt I was playing well" regardless of loss. I started keeping track (roughly) of my overall session results after certain buyin loss levels (2BI, 3BI). I found for the vast majority of time once I reached these levels in a session I would not recover, and I highly recommend people who wonder when to stop do this exercise. It's a bit of work but if you want to be serious about poker you've got to be disciplined enough to do these kind of things.
The stop loss level you come up with will vary on your style, skill, competition etc. But come up with a level and stick with it. You have to remember: there's always another day, another "great game", another session. My stop loss level is 2BI. While this may seem low to most, triggering it always made me critique my play in more depth and really helped me with my discipline and drive to succeed. Last year I played ~800 hrs and reached my session stop loss 7 times.
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:09 PM   #17709
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

a lot of stuff in poker is about comfort levels. if you only have 2 BIs, you might not be comfortable calling something off as a 55/45 favorite. If you're not comfortable losing $1000 in 1 hand, you probably aren't going to jump into a 10/20 game. each person needs to find whatever their stopping point(s) is/are and go from there. it's great that people have so many different idea's about when to stop but there isn't a "this is the correct answer" to this type of situation.
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Old 01-18-2017, 03:38 AM   #17710
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Sounds like you have a lot of discipline problems? If so, isn't moving up in stakes a pretty bad idea?

If I was to rank the most important qualities of a winning player, far and away the number one quality would be discipline. You could have the most expert of crushing strategies but without discipline it would be completely useless.

GgoodluckG
Well after that period of losing I kept my roll in one place and never used it for anything other than poker so I could see it growing without records. But I am glad I'm back to recording my progress because I can see everything in that much more detail and have a better idea of what's going on. I moved up because I grew my bankroll to between 20 - 30 buy ins (@ 1/3) and didn't need the money for anything else and I have a regular income I live off separately.

I agree with the discipline factor in general. I always thought the main reason why people lost was down to discipline rather than not having the required skills to beat the game. I see a lot of regs who can beat fish but will set money on fire when on tilt. After tilting enough myself you have to either accept that losing is part of the game and not let it affect you or suffer big losses, which is obviously a huge leak which should be avoided.

I'm not naturally inclined to be disciplined but I think understanding why it's so important and following the routine of recording after every session will train myself to follow this kind of discipline effortlessly.
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:50 AM   #17711
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Just started to have time for Poker again, and decided to track my live records as I try to take it more seriously. Playing 1/2 NL, hoping to move to 2/5 by the end of the year.

First 100 hours:

Profit- $2,893

Hourly- $28.92

BB/H- 14.5

Running well above expectations, have had most big hands hold up, etc. Also, 1/2 NL players are still really bad.
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:18 AM   #17712
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Originally Posted by JacetheMind View Post
Just started to have time for Poker again, and decided to track my live records as I try to take it more seriously. Playing 1/2 NL, hoping to move to 2/5 by the end of the year.

First 100 hours:

Profit- $2,893

Hourly- $28.92

BB/H- 14.5

Running well above expectations, have had most big hands hold up, etc. Also, 1/2 NL players are still really bad.
Nice Start!
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:19 AM   #17713
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I am not going to beat a dead horse regarding the argument abainst having 2Bi or 3BI stop losses.

On a subject like stop losses, I think that people should consult the opinions of poker players who have won $500k+ over their last 10k hours. Then you would see that all the respectable players don't have such arbitrarily low stop loss limits.

I can see a little merit for a 5BI or 6BI stop loss, but 3BI stop losses are way too low.
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:27 AM   #17714
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With that said, it is important to recognize when fatigue is kicking in. There are a lot of poker players who keep playing in non-spectacular games when they are tired, and that is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:39 AM   #17715
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Nice Start!
Thanks Mike.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:12 PM   #17716
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
I am not going to beat a dead horse regarding the argument abainst having 2Bi or 3BI stop losses.

On a subject like stop losses, I think that people should consult the opinions of poker players who have won $500k+ over their last 10k hours. Then you would see that all the respectable players don't have such arbitrarily low stop loss limits.

I can see a little merit for a 5BI or 6BI stop loss, but 3BI stop losses are way too low.
I agree with the caveat that if a player is emotionally fragile to the point of tilt after a 2BI loss, they should keep at 2. That should be just a temporary fix though. Working out your losers tilt is paramount.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:33 PM   #17717
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Stop losses are perfect for anyone who thinks they might need a stop loss.
And possibly good for people who do not think they need a stop loss.
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Old 01-18-2017, 03:56 PM   #17718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
I am not going to beat a dead horse regarding the argument abainst having 2Bi or 3BI stop losses.

On a subject like stop losses, I think that people should consult the opinions of poker players who have won $500k+ over their last 10k hours. Then you would see that all the respectable players don't have such arbitrarily low stop loss limits.

I can see a little merit for a 5BI or 6BI stop loss, but 3BI stop losses are way too low.
People that have won $500k playing poker don't play the same as us regular people. 400-500bbs has always worked great for me as a stop loss
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Old 01-18-2017, 04:25 PM   #17719
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

To echo what spike said...I generally agree with David but if someone is able to recognize that they have tilt issues then getting up after 2-3 BI is probably a good idea FOR THEM.

However, they should address the tilt issue as it is a huge hole in their game and will limit their ability to play successfully long term.
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Old 01-18-2017, 05:30 PM   #17720
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Davids point is that you will never achieve that level of skill until you fix issues such as emotional intelligence.

We all say its a fix "for now", but in reality how many actually end up working on their tilt issues?

I agree that most would probably benefit from a stop loss because they dont have that emotional intelligence needed -- but thats just putting a bandaid on the issue.
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Old 01-18-2017, 07:25 PM   #17721
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In my non $500k winning expierence, tilt has more to do with BRM and losing when one isn't rolled to lose than the amount of buyins it is. So in reality, it's a BRM issue
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Old 01-18-2017, 07:45 PM   #17722
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Not necessarily. I'm ludicrously overrolled for my main game, as it's the biggest game that goes in my area, and I still "seethe tilt" after several bad beats in a row, even if they aren't for stacks. I'm not proud of it, but I know that I start to play a bit weak/tight after that happens. For me, it's less an issue of how much I am down than how I lost it. I can happily keep playing my A game down several buy-ins if I lost them on flips or coolers, but if I lost them due to bad play on my part or getting sucked out on... not so good.
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:00 PM   #17723
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Not necessarily. I'm ludicrously overrolled for my main game, as it's the biggest game that goes in my area, and I still "seethe tilt" after several bad beats in a row, even if they aren't for stacks. I'm not proud of it, but I know that I start to play a bit weak/tight after that happens. For me, it's less an issue of how much I am down than how I lost it. I can happily keep playing my A game down several buy-ins if I lost them on flips or coolers, but if I lost them due to bad play on my part or getting sucked out on... not so good.
Yeah pretty standard. For me this bad play doesn't lead to tilt but rather frustration. I just note the action and analyse it later so I can get over it and not have it affect my play.
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:50 PM   #17724
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Not necessarily. I'm ludicrously overrolled for my main game, as it's the biggest game that goes in my area, and I still "seethe tilt" after several bad beats in a row, even if they aren't for stacks. I'm not proud of it, but I know that I start to play a bit weak/tight after that happens. For me, it's less an issue of how much I am down than how I lost it. I can happily keep playing my A game down several buy-ins if I lost them on flips or coolers, but if I lost them due to bad play on my part or getting sucked out on... not so good.


I think this is an interesting distinction and I am similar. I was in for three bullets within 45 minutes last night due to getting coolered (my KK into AA, my top full house into quads, my middle set into a flopped straight) and I was still in great spirits. But, I paid a fish off on what should have been a fold and I berated myself for like 10 minutes about how I should have gotten away. I guess that's my competitive nature but it's definitely something I'm working on. It's nice to know that it's hard to lose much money in 10 minutes though because we just don't see many hands live.


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Old 01-18-2017, 10:15 PM   #17725
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I think this is an interesting distinction and I am similar. I was in for three bullets within 45 minutes last night due to getting coolered (my KK into AA, my top full house into quads, my middle set into a flopped straight) and I was still in great spirits. But, I paid a fish off on what should have been a fold and I berated myself for like 10 minutes about how I should have gotten away. I guess that's my competitive nature but it's definitely something I'm working on. It's nice to know that it's hard to lose much money in 10 minutes though because we just don't see many hands live.


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Yeah paying people off when it should have been a fold is the most tilting for me as well. Also getting caught bluffing is annoying when they've been folding all day.
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