It's counter-intuitive that if you play longer sessions to get "unstuck" it will lower your overall winrate. All things being equal, What this will do is you INCREASE the amount of time you spend at harder/less profitable tables while MINIMIZING the amount of time you spend at winning tables.

It leads to a philosophy that is driven by cashing out a winner instead of playing your game for the longtime.

For example, Hero sits down at a donkfest action table where everyone is 150bb+ Hero flops a set within 20 minutes and three donks stack off with TPGK or gutshots!!! Hero gets up 300bb and then starts getting scared that he will lose his profits so he does a hit-n-run and leaves after one more orbit. Total time at the table 30 mins.

Next day he buy-ins 100bb and a sneaky player hits 2p on river and takes hero for 40bb. Few hands later hero is bluffed out of big pot. Hero reloads to 100bb and just can't catch a break and losses it. So he reloads and nits up residing himself to get back those two buy-ins. He grinds for 7hrs and ultimately leaves down 2 buy-ins.

So, if you look at this objectively, in situation #1, hero is at the world's juiciest table but only stays 30mins but in situation #2 hero is at a tough table and stays 7hrs...

Like I said, its counter-intuitive but you DON'T want to focus on the money (ie I'm gonna play till I get unstuck) but rather you want to focus on your play vs the table dynamics and regard it as one long game.

Last night, that is, Thursday, Crown were running 6 $1/2 tables. So, there's more action at this stake level than I realized. You should be able to table-select 3-4 nights a week, then. Not bad

Which would you prefer?
#1 80% winrate with pots $25 or less
#2 65% winrate with pots $250+

Let me give you another example. There is the super LAG that I often play against in 2/5nl. Let's say me and this V have played 1000 pots heads up. 75% of those hands were for pots under $50 and 25% of the hands were for pots over $500. For pots under $50 villain beats me 70% of the time. For pots over $500 I beat villain 85% of the time.

Yes this is a simplification but I hope you see the point. Just because villain beats me "more" and has a higher win % vs me in the strict sense of win/losses I have MORE EARNINGS and that is all that matters.

You are thinking in terms of a win/loss column and that is the wrong way to think about it.

Imagine playing a session where you won 10 small pots but then went all-in and got stacked and lost. Do you think to youself, "gee, that was a great session, I won 10 hands and only lost 1" or do you think to yourself, "not a good session, I'm down a buy-in"

I see your overall point about winning bigger pots rather than lots of smaller pots---and how this is an analogue for a winning/losing session-percentage.

But, I'm merely asking whether a win/loss %, over a decent sample, say 1000hrs+, is indicative of certain playing styles. So, when guys show me they've been winning 75% of sessions, I can say, in general, that measure indicates you're not maximising your EV.

You seem to be saying that the win/loss statistic should be regarded as irrelevant because it distracts us from thinking in terms of one "endless session" and the key task of making +EV decisions. In this sense, the question in the OP is redundant, i.e. "if you're a decent player what % of sessions are you at profit?"

Interesting question

I've just gone through all of my sessions for the past 500 hours since I've been tracking.

I've won just over 60% of the sessions but my average winning session is more than twice my average losing session and 9 of the 10 biggest swings, ie $ value up or down, are in the up column. (partly this can be explained by a 3 Buy In stop loss strategy)

in DGI's parlance I'm probably in the middle section not the crushing one and my goal right now is to be a good ABC player...win the maximum, lose the minimum...so I suppose these results fit with that.

over 1.5k hrs, I have 65%

More to the point, what does 65% mean? Can you use this percentage to help you maxamize your win-rate? Is 65% too high or too low?

Let's say that you're a regular to the game and you have played enough of the same game to establish a rough stop-win limit.

In this instance, you have exceeded the stop-win limit plus 10-15%. Do you still continue to play, and why?

I wanted to ask a few questions here since this is probably the thread for it.


1. Is playing 1/2NL a waste of time if you have a sufficient bankroll for 2/5NL? The thing is i played online mid stakes sngs and made a good amount of money even though i played not for a very long time and thus have the bankroll for 2/5NL. Basically what im saying is i made enough money where i could use that money to play 2/5NL. The reason why i play a ton of hours at 1/2NL was because i never played much live poker until this year. I mean back a few years ago i played a bit but it was always just few hours and always 1/2Nl. Also... back then i was a fish. Overbetting AA preflop and pretty much overbetting AA as well and now as i play more hours... i gotten better. Back then i didnt even keep track of pot size and basically played 50bb poker because i didn't know how to play with deep stack. Now i always buyin the max at 1/2NL which is $300. I recorded my sessions and i'm a very small winner at 1/2NL. The reaosn though is I'm very use to spewing when i go carddead for a few hours and play hands that i normally fold. Like if you buyin for $300 at 1/2nl for 150bb each time... would it be better idea to buyin for $300 at 2/5nl since the pots actually are meaningful compared to 1/2nl?


2. Another thing i want to mention is something that someone mentioned that kind of affects me. When i play 1/2NL... i notice that compared to most ppl i overtip. Like if a pot is $500 all in... many times i tip $5. There are some rare times i tip $3 but the thing is i don't want to look like a nit. But then i pretty much notice most ppl dont really notice unless you don't even tip $1. I also notice i tip whenever i play 1/2nl and take down the blinds with no limpers. Yes thats horrible but i stopped this but i also have this habit of say one limper, then i raise and take that $5 in blinds and then i tip because i dont want the dealer to give me that look. But whenever the pot is at least $10, i always tip $1. I know this isn't the tipping thread but for you live low stakes players here... do you feel like tipping every hand and overtipping affects your winrate? My last time playing live of 1/2NL... i played 20 hours and lost about $250. I don't keep track of how much i tip but if i had to give a good estimate... I probably say in those 20 hours... i tip at least $70. This was due to those times when i won a big pot and tip $5 few times but then of course you have those times when you lost your stack and then well you're down money. Does anyone also when they start having a bad day... then stop wanting to tip because of how much they are down? I started noticing this about me but of course still tip because i dont like to look bad


3. I played some 1/3NL recently and i feel like this game is great compared to 1/2NL because when i win a pot... the pot is actually meaningful compared to 1/2nl. Does anyone here agree with this? The reason why i say this is when i take down a pot... usually the pot is like minimum $15 so tipping $1 a hand doesn't bother me much. And when the pots are bigger like $200, $300... tipping $2 a hand doesn't seem like much and it feels like the higher the game you play... it makes sense because it helps you beat the tips. Am i right or wrong here? I know for low stakes 1/2nl games... you have to beat the rake and the BBJ and when you add tips...its hard to beat it for anything unless you never tip which is something that i never do. People always tell me i'm a very generous tipper at the 1/2nl games.


4. I played 1/3 and i never want to play 1/2 again. Like the pots at 1/2 seem so little that i dont even want to play it. Someone mentioned this to me when he played 2/5 after 1/2 and said after you play 2/5 for a bit... you find 1/2 boring. Does everyone else agree on this part? Also the thing i was thinking was pots at 2/5 actually mean something even when you tip $1 or $2 a hand. But at 1/2nl... pots that are $200 are considered big when at 2/5... its nothing. I mean for 1/2nl... even when the pot is $100 its somewhat big. The other thing is when you steal the blinds at 2/5... its $7 so its something compared to $3 at 1/2. Does anyone agree with this?


5. For those who play timed games like at 2/5NL and up... does anyone know what is the best time to leave a game if you going to leave soon? The thing is at 1/2nl... i normally leave when its close to my BB or in my BB. But at 2/5nl... since they do time... is it normal for ppl who are going to leave to leave exactly when a new dealer comes in and then take money for the time or do people leave when its the BB? Also... i assume you dont pay time if you arrive say 5 minutes after the new dealer came and you get 25 minutes rake free am i correct here? Also... when you start a new game... i know they collect time so eseentially if someone buyins for 100bb... they start with 99bb because of time collection right?


6. What is a typical downswing for you guys here who are solid players that play 1/2nl, 1/3nl and 2/5nl? The thing is like when i have a downswing of say $800 at 1/2NL... it seems so hard to continue to play because it usually takes so much time to win any part back because of how small the pots are. But at 1/3nl when i played it a few times... i liked it because you actually win/loss some decent size pots. And obviously at 2/5nl... the pots will be much bigger than 1/3nl so i wanted an opinion on this. I assume good players will have quite a few 10 buyin downswings? Is it every normal for a good player to lose 6-7 buyins at 2/5NL in one day or is that very rare?


7. The place where i see 2/5nl is 100bb max buyin. Does anyone else feel like 100bb is in a way kind of short? Back many years ago... i never play 100bb because i was really bad at poker and bought in 50bb and play tight. Now... i hate it whenever i have less than say 140bb because it feel kind of shortstack a bit since i buyin for 300 everytime at 1/2nl. Like if you buyin for 100bb at 2/5nl... do some of you feel like it doesnt give you much room to bluff since you aren't deepstacked? The other thing is if 100bb is the max buyin at 2/5nl... there are probably tons of ppl who buyin for the minimum which is 40bb and of course ppl who buyin for 60bb or 80bb. The thing is are there usually a ton of short mid stackers in this game just hoping to wait for AA and KK? Because you have some of these guys at 1/2nl which i hate but at 2/5nl... i would hate these tight short stackplayers but i guess its normal to have these players? Like i feel like if i buyin fro $200 at a 2/5nl game and play like a nit and say my stack gets down to $160 and then i double up off someone with AA and then have $350... wouldn't the other guy hate it for being a shortstacking nit? I wouldn't do this as i hate shortstacking and i think its pretty scum to shortstack but i'm wondering if most regs hate these players. Now i dont mind horrible shortstackers though.

if you can beat 1/2 and are properly rolled for 2/5, then clearly you should play 2/5.

I've noticed that I tip way too much (often up to or over 10% of the pot). I really need to keep track of how much I tip and reduce it. Of course, this will make me much less popular with the dealers.

James reading your posts you can't beat 2/5

But if you can beat 1/2 and are rolled for 2/5 you should play

Also, hahaha did not read.

Instinst.... i played 1/2NL and am a winner at it but very small winner. Thats why i asked about 2/5NL.


Yes I'm rolled for 2/5NL because i use to do very well at mid stakes sngs back on stars so thats how i have the bankroll for playing live.


Would like someone to answer my questions though.

You are not that good if you need us to answer those questions. Re-Evaluate

Read this from Venice:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...g-down-729719/

Also do a search on the topic. There are quite a number of threads to digest first. To be honest, the questions you are asking suggest you need to think about this a little more.

Study the bankroll requirements in depth. Keep in mind bankroll requirements depend on your playing style and personality. The fact that you're worried about losing $800 set off alarm bells

You say that you're a winner at 1/2. Over what sample? How many b/bs per hour? Ask yourself whether the way you play at 1/2 will translate into a winning style at 2/5. There are a bunch of strategy issues relevant here, which you can start addressing by watching the 2/5 games in your local room.

PS. Your questions are too long

Hi. I'm not bothered at all about losing $800. It was the fact that i lost it at 1/2NL... so at that point, I didn't feel like playing anymore 1/2NL as it takes a while to win back money. Does this make any sense? Like when i win a few $30 here and there... I find it frustrating because it takes a while to win it back.


My sample is close to 140 hours only. I never played much live poker until this year. I'm a very small winner. I do not know how many bbs per hour but I'm pretty sure its no more than $6 an hour.


The thing is I use to tip everypot $1 each time even when i take the blinds and right now i do this whenever i take down the pot after winning $5. And i tip $5 a lot whenever a pot is at least $400. I even tip $3 a pot when the pot is like $200 and I'm the guy who overtips so much at the 1/2NL table. I know tips shouldn't be that big of a factor but I consider it in my situation because of any good player at a 1/2nl table, i'm easily one of the best tippers at each table when you dont count those recreational losing players.


After playing many hours at 1/2nl... yes i know that is not much of a sample at all... i really feel like i'm wasting a ton of time playing it b/c i have the roll for 2/5nl. And many times... the pots at 1/2 seem so small to me especially when im down a few buyins.

Sounds like a typical thrill seeking wannabe whale that just wants to play the biggest game he can afford, or can't afford but have just enough to get in the game.

Advice? Do what your heart desires.

1st of all, tip whatever makes you happy.
2nd, especially at 1/2nl, tips will slightly cut into your winrate.
3rd, you should think about how much you profit from a hand, not how much is in the pot. So when you take down $3 in blinds and tip $1, that is stupid.
even if the pot is $20 but you are only profiting $10 then tipping $1 is too much.

dont ever tip again. it isnt logical at a poker table

shortstacking is awesome if you can do it properly. Most people dont, so take advantage of them and reap the rewards. Short staking is a great way to build your BR or take shots at higher games

once again, what concerns you more, money or what people think of you?

Thanks for your response. Well money is more important to me but I don't want to be viewed as cheap. Most dealers i play at all know i tip well so well i feel like i'm obligated to tip even when i take down $3 in blinds. Thats why i feel like at 2/5NL... well at least i take down $7 so $1 isn't that much.


And you mentioned forget about 1/2 and just memorize chart for full ring. I am well aware of hand selection for full ring games. I use to play mid stakes sngs and did very well though obviously that isn't the same as cash games. I definitely would be able to short stack properly as i know how it works. I use to do this at 50Nl online and it worked pretty okay for me.

I don't know why but its like at 1/2NL when i played if i see someone stack another guy for $200 and all he tips is $1... I view him as a nit that i don't like giving that guy action. Thats why when i play... i feel like if i'm a cheap tipper and don't tip... which would never happen then ppl won't give me action. Then again theres been times i play pretty tight and dont get action yet i tip very well. I dont know why but i feel like if i steal the blinds twice in a row or take down 2 very small pots and dont tip $1, it makes the dealer give me the eye if you know what i mean?

actions speak louder than words, and your actions are saying that you care more about what people think than earning money

too bad

Hi. The thing is before every session i play, i tell myself okay I will not tip every single hand i play and not tip so much. But what ended up happening almost everytime is i just get this feeling that dealer would stare at me for not tipping even for a small pot.

Actually yes you are correct if what you said. Yes my actions care more what about ppl think than earning money. Which is why i feel like at 1/3NL and 2/5NL and up when the pots are bigger than 1/2NL.. then it doesn't bother me much because most pots are decent compared to 1/2nl.

So what happens if the dealer stares at you? Nothing, I guess it takes maybe 5-10 more seconds before the next hand is dealt. Not only does nothing happen, they likely won't stare at you. You know why? Because if they make you feel uncomfortable then you're less likely to tip.

Sure you could move up, but don't you think you should remove the ridiculously huge glaring flaw in your game before you do it? I've never heard someone say they don't give action to people because they don't tip every hand. This is a serious flaw in your thought process.

Jamest, for your next 100 hours keep track of your tips and you will see how much per/hour or per month it adds up to.

Well the thing is when i see someone that doesn't tip at the table, i almost never give this player action unless i have something to play with.


Am i the only one like this?


Also, how do you guys keep track of how much you tip per session? Would definitely like to know this.


You mentioned that stare the dealer gives and how it shouldn't be that long. Well i seen dealers glare at those non tippers and many times i hear those dealers raise their voice and say something like THANK YOU I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT... and thats when many times the non tipper then tosses the dealer a buck. Is that even allowed? Because when i play in AC... i seen quite a number of dealers do this and I really think its rude. I understand the staring thing but the comments like this seem extremely inappropriate.