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Old 12-31-2016, 01:07 PM   #17376
Tiltyjoker
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You guys must be playing in some tough games.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:14 PM   #17377
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How does it mean nothing? For example you are playing for 6 hours. And you double through a bigger stack. You're stack would have $120 more chips than it normally would if you paid time rake/tips from your table stack.
Are you saying that you should generally play full stack, that you don't take time charge into account when computing win rate, or both? I agree with the former. On the latter, you can compute win rate however you like but most people include time charge/rake in their win rate so you'll be comparing apples to oranges against most people.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:19 PM   #17378
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Then you lose more. Hopefully we're winning more than losing when stacks go in longrun
Lol +1. Actually some good advice imo. I don't play in time-rake games so I'm not sure the hassle of carrying a bunch of $1 chips in my pocket to tip is really worth it, but we should always want our effective stacks as deep as possible (assuming we are better than the other players obviously)
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:41 PM   #17379
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Are you saying that you should generally play full stack, that you don't take time charge into account when computing win rate, or both? I agree with the former. On the latter, you can compute win rate however you like but most people include time charge/rake in their win rate so you'll be comparing apples to oranges against most people.
I include rake when calculating. The $150 in chips in my pocket and in the cup holder is added to the total amount I buy in for at the table when I record the session
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:20 PM   #17380
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i believe Mike's point was the times that you stack someone with that extra $120 in your stack are going to be negated by the times you get stacked by someone with that extra $120 in your stack

effectively he's saying it becomes moot, which i think is going to be close to the truth in the long run
I guess I just disagree with the second premise.
If we are getting stacks in and losing as often as we are getting stacks in and winning then we are likely playing bad poker.

And this is coming from someone who gets stacks in pretty often...
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:47 PM   #17381
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This has prob never been discussed here but should help winrates for good players.

I mostly play in time rake games. I pay for time out of pocket and not from stack. Take it one step further and tip out of pocket as well. I preserve my playable stack by at least $20/hr

Merry Christmas lol
This sounds bad for the game.

"Hey man, why are you paying time out of pocket?"

"So that I can stack you for an extra $50, which will increase my long term winrate by about 80 cents an hour."

"Oh..."
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:55 PM   #17382
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This sounds bad for the game.

"Hey man, why are you paying time out of pocket?"

"So that I can stack you for an extra $50, which will increase my long term winrate by about 80 cents an hour."

"Oh..."
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Old 12-31-2016, 02:57 PM   #17383
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The actual # is going to be different for every player and overall strategy. If we use a winning prototypical 2+2 tag as a baseline. I'd estimate it's closer to +$3/hr.
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:03 PM   #17384
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I mean even if it's as low as .8/hr. We spend hours nitpicking a lot of gray spots where deciphering between call/fold/raise may not give us +.8/hr long term.

Plus it's really not that big of a deal. Ppl don't really notice and if anyone asks just say you are superstitious about taking $ out your stack

Last edited by Tiltyjoker; 12-31-2016 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:31 PM   #17385
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I guess I just disagree with the second premise.
If we are getting stacks in and losing as often as we are getting stacks in and winning then we are likely playing bad poker.

And this is coming from someone who gets stacks in pretty often...
Not if we're playing very aggressive versus villains who fold too much. Then we may mostly get it in bad, but compensate for that by all the pots we steal when we jam and they fold.

But the whole premise is ridiculous. Stealthily top off if you have to, but don't blatantly use chips from off the table to pay time and tips.

Poker is about more than the lines you take in your hands.
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:33 PM   #17386
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I guess I just disagree with the second premise.
If we are getting stacks in and losing as often as we are getting stacks in and winning then we are likely playing bad poker.

And this is coming from someone who gets stacks in pretty often...
i havent analyzed it, but i dont think it's close to moot solely because getting AI gets canceled out. there are a lot of sessions where we're not playing from above max buy in too, which factor into it becoming close to zero.

granted, i'm not really taking a hardline stance here, if someone analyzed it and had some numbers, i'd sway pretty easily.

another problem with this whole scenario is there are plenty of people who will do things above tipping from their stack, like pay for food or massages. so while our intent is to get as deep as possible, many others are willing to blow money from their stacks on non-poker related items
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:47 PM   #17387
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Not if we're playing very aggressive versus villains who fold too much. Then we may mostly get it in bad, but compensate for that by all the pots we steal when we jam and they fold.

But the whole premise is ridiculous. Stealthily top off if you have to, but don't blatantly use chips from off the table to pay time and tips.

Poker is about more than the lines you take in your hands.
For 1/2-5/5 having an overall strategy where you end being down over a fair sample, when allin/called is insanely high varianced and totally unnecessary for these stakes. The general player pool tends to call off way too wide which helps make these stakes so soft. If you really break it down it's got to be a leak to play this way.

As you move up yes, I agree $ won w/o showdown becomes increasingly important.

How are you sure to the extent of saying it's ridiculous?

Last edited by Tiltyjoker; 12-31-2016 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:58 PM   #17388
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i believe Mike's point was the times that you stack someone with that extra $120 in your stack are going to be negated by the times you get stacked by someone with that extra $120 in your stack

effectively he's saying it becomes moot, which i think is going to be close to the truth in the long run
Exactly.
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:12 PM   #17389
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Ended my 1/2 prop bet. I grinded some marathon sessions to get enough hours to prove a point. I win the prop bet easily.

168 hrs
$7670
$45.65/hr
82% winning sessions
18% losing sessions

StnDev $124.60 / hr

I ran a couple hundo under All-in EV equity.

Favorite hands

1) Button straddle $5. Both blinds call.
I make it $20 KK. LP and button call
Pot $70. Flop Q62. I check. MP checks. Button bets $35. I check raise to $100. Button calls heads up.
Pot $ 270 Turn 9. I shove all in. He calls off $175 with JJ. River Q and mhig.

2) 5 limps. SB raises to $8. I 3 bet to $25 with As5s in BB.

Pot $60. Flop 875. He checks. I bet $35. He calls.
Pot $130 Turn A. He leads $25. I raise to $100. He calls.
Pot $330. River 6. He checks. I shove all in. He calls off his last $150 and mucks.
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:25 PM   #17390
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Nice congrats. How long was it for? A month?

What's the biggest difference in the lower stakes?
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:30 PM   #17391
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Nice congrats. How long was it for? A month?

What's the biggest difference in the lower stakes?
The bet was for at least 100 hours but I kept going all month to make it harder to say it was a fluke.

I would say the biggest difference is that almost everyone has major leaks including sizing tells and paying off big bets. At 2/5 I see a lot less of that. Also, 1/2 players hardly ever put you to a big test like some 2/5 players do.

The preflop raise sizing tells at 1/2 are incredibly easy to spot if you are paying attention.
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:51 PM   #17392
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Must have felt nice crushing. GL when you move back to your regular stakes
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:53 PM   #17393
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
i believe Mike's point was the times that you stack someone with that extra $120 in your stack are going to be negated by the times you get stacked by someone with that extra $120 in your stack

effectively he's saying it becomes moot, which i think is going to be close to the truth in the long run
Right, even if you expect to be ahead most of the time, you're only profiting some small percentage of that figure in the long run. Even discounting all ins there are situations where it'd be better to have 20bb less in your stack.

Anyway, I don't think it's worth looking like a tool to squeak out a couple more theoretical dollars. That sort of image has to have some negative effect.

You could just go north fifty bucks when you sit down instead.
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:35 AM   #17394
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The bet was for at least 100 hours but I kept going all month to make it harder to say it was a fluke.

I would say the biggest difference is that almost everyone has major leaks including sizing tells and paying off big bets. At 2/5 I see a lot less of that. Also, 1/2 players hardly ever put you to a big test like some 2/5 players do.

The preflop raise sizing tells at 1/2 are incredibly easy to spot if you are paying attention.
Curious what bet was? For how much?


Asking because working on doing a prop with friend. I have next 60 days off. Need motivation to play.

Nice run by way.

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Last edited by mikko; 01-01-2017 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:16 AM   #17395
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You could just go north fifty bucks when you sit down instead.

This. Worrying about your <2bb to top your >200bb stack is negligible. IMO not worth paying from your pocket and drawing attention to yourself.

If you're that much of a nit about it go north a few bbs. Nobody cares
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:36 AM   #17396
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how is this even a conversation? buy in full. top up so you cover the cap or everyone at the table as soon as you go under. then it doesnt matter whether your tip/rake money comes from your pocket or stack. EV is the same.
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:37 AM   #17397
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Curious what bet was? For how much?


Asking because working on doing a prop with friend. I have next 60 days off. Need motivation to play.

Nice run by way.

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I got 3:1 odds on $500. I had to make $30/hr+ for at least 100 hrs
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Old 01-01-2017, 02:59 AM   #17398
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So you played half your usual stakes for a month to win at most 3 buyins of the stake you usually play at?
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:42 AM   #17399
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I'm sure it's been covered somewhere in here but what's a good app or two for android and tracking cash games?
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Old 01-01-2017, 05:07 AM   #17400
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So you played half your usual stakes for a month to win at most 3 buyins of the stake you usually play at?
^^this

Also what kind of idiot gave you 3-1 odds on that?
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