Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-23-2016, 09:54 PM   #17251
nicname
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big 12
Posts: 627
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by bip! View Post
Would love to see the "real life WR thread" ... some much needed perspective @"200k jobs" in the real world.
This.
nicname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 09:58 PM   #17252
feel wrath
The Situation
 
feel wrath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 23,861
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
You've named 2 spots on the planet.

Any others I'm missing?

The basic point is that someone brought up the assertion that "all" you have to do have a shot at ~$200K a year is sit down in a 5/T game regularly. My guess is that there's not exactly a lotta places on the planet that have those stakes running all the time.

But, I'll admit ignorance on this as I'm basing this on my very closeted experience in my market. Maybe everyone else's market is completely different than mine.

GcluelesshighstakesnoobG


We would have at least two and probably here games 3-4 times a week with buy ins over 2k. Same in our other major city

Then there are private games running all over the place that you just wouldn't know about if you weren't in the scene - they will exist in your market.

And....to play mid stakes poker, you need to be prepared to be a small business owner...move to follow games and even players - change cities, follow tournament series, cultivate action create home games etc. the bigger games are way more organic than just 'show up at local room and put your money down at the biggest available game'

Two high stakes pros here rented a private restaurant room for three weeks in a casino in another city during a tournament series and hosted whales and built games for them. He provided all the food and the dealers and they had full time waitresses providing free drinka
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:05 PM   #17253
bodybuilder32
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,423
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by larswheels View Post
Living in cities like LA and NYC and not making 150k+ is hell. I have a hunch most LA NL professionals make less than 100k/yr. Not a fun life unless you love poker and I don't know a single professional poker player that does.
I don't disagree with this. Although, like other posters have mentioned, landing 200k a year jobs ain't exactly the easiest thing to do in the real world.

I am probably one of the minority of people out in the real world where being a professional poker player is actually a +EV life move compared to working in a job. I belong to the millennial generation and I really didn't start to get my act together in life until I had already graduated with a worthless degree.

Agree that playing 40+ hours a week ain't all that fun, but options are somewhat limited.

Ironically, the discipline involved with being a successful pro has probably put me leaps and bounds ahead of my peers in terms of emotional intelligence, hard work, understanding of probabilities and opportunity cost, dealing with adversity, etc. Sadly, it's pretty hard to convey this to respectable employers on a CV.
bodybuilder32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:09 PM   #17254
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Do you guys think it's possible for a full time player to log 2500 hours in a year?
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:20 PM   #17255
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 10,921
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
Do you guys think it's possible for a full time player to log 2500 hours in a year?


Of course it is. Most people would probably autopilot for 1000 of it though
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:26 PM   #17256
Angrist
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,883
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
Do you guys think it's possible for a full time player to log 2500 hours in a year?
With a short commute, games that run every day with decent action, and eating meals in the casino? Yes. Maybe.

That's 50 hours per week for 50 weeks a year. So if you were putting in 8 hour sessions 6 days a week you'd only need a little more to hit it. I don't think that would be easy, or too much fun. And I think the lack of time away from the game to recharge, and away from the table to read/study would hurt your performance at the table.

I doubt that playing 2500 hours would really net you that much more than 2000 hours with a little more time working off table.
Angrist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:26 PM   #17257
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
Do you guys think it's possible for a full time player to log 2500 hours in a year?

Why would it not be possible?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:45 PM   #17258
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Obv it's "possible" but I just have been hearing so many people sooking ITT about how tuff it is to grind 1800 hours a year. And all these "pros" whining about how bad they are at getting volume in.

To me imo, I don't see how you could call yourself a "pro" unless you were playing 2k+ hours at 2/5 or higher. Or like a deep 1/3
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 10:50 PM   #17259
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Good thing you're not the committee assigning pro cards.

Not sure where you are going with the question and how it is relevant.

Volume is an issue because most rather play weekend and night to maintain certain expectation in WR. It's less sexy to say your WR is 5bb even though your YTD is higher than to say your WR is 11bb.
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2016, 11:22 PM   #17260
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Good thing you're not the committee assigning pro cards.

Not sure where you are going with the question and how it is relevant.

Volume is an issue because most rather play weekend and night to maintain certain expectation in WR. It's less sexy to say your WR is 5bb even though your YTD is higher than to say your WR is 11bb.
2k hours at 6bb/HR is only 60k assuming you run at EV. Don't see how anyone could work less than 40 hours a week and expect to make similar money unless their WR was higher but, not to get back into the gr8 WR deb8, I think 6bb/HR is reasonably modest to shoot for as a pro even if your true WR may be higher, you're going to want to be conservative in projections.
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 02:22 AM   #17261
VolumeKing
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 729
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Doing a prob bet with a friend of mine. Most volume until the new year, and I am taking off two days. I hope to hit 70 hrs in about 5 and a half days
VolumeKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 05:30 AM   #17262
Dochrohan
Pooh-Bah
 
Dochrohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,194
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
Doing a prob bet with a friend of mine. Most volume until the new year, and I am taking off two days. I hope to hit 70 hrs in about 5 and a half days
70 hours in 144 hours not impressed, make it 100 and I think you got a bet.

You'd be a smelly ass hog at 100 and I think it would be great.
Dochrohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 06:23 AM   #17263
feel wrath
The Situation
 
feel wrath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 23,861
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochrohan View Post
70 hours in 144 hours not impressed, make it 100 and I think you got a bet.

You'd be a smelly ass hog at 100 and I think it would be great.


Paging Duke!
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 10:41 AM   #17264
MikeStarr
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,978
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie View Post
5T hardly ever runs at Tampa hard rock fwiw.
5/10 hardly ever runs at Hard Rock in Hollywood either. How about people stick to posting about what they know for sure?

As Avaritia has posted earlier, there's almost never a 5/10 game at Hard Rock. There's almost always one single game at the Isle (2 of them maybe 15% of the time). DCFT reports almost never a 5/10 at HR Tampa.

Ive traveled other parts of Florida and have found no 5/10 games anywhere else. Maybe Jacksonville has one, not sure. That's basically 1-2 games in just about the entire state of Florida which people seem to think is poker mecca.
MikeStarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 10:51 AM   #17265
DeathCabForTootie
Pooh-Bah
 
DeathCabForTootie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: SHR Tunaments
Posts: 5,722
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

TBF, it's been running more during the holidays, but from what I've seen its only one table. The "Big Game" here is PLO.
DeathCabForTootie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 11:04 AM   #17266
bwslim69
I'm a Diva, Bruh
 
bwslim69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TPS reports
Posts: 24,038
*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I would guess and this is a total guess, that the number of 5/T players making 200k "consistently" over multiple (where multiple means > 2) years in the US could be counted on 1 hand

Obviously if you mix in some private games and playing higher there are more but it would be extremely rare just from 5/10 imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bwslim69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 11:19 AM   #17267
miamicheats
i finance dead fish
 
miamicheats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: getting reverse bumhunted
Posts: 16,542
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
Dochrohan makes some good points. While I wouldn't say that someone needed to be a sicko skillswise, it does help a lot.


I don't know a ton of 200k+ pros but I can say the vast majority of them are not the sickest players in the room. They know how to treat action players well, get private games and are well liked. The complete sickos aren't invited to these games. Instead they battle the other good pros.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
miamicheats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 11:32 AM   #17268
bwslim69
I'm a Diva, Bruh
 
bwslim69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TPS reports
Posts: 24,038
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by bip! View Post
Would love to see the "real life WR thread" ... some much needed perspective @"200k jobs" in the real world.


I don't think your point is wrong. However I think it is "easier" to make 200k (or pick a number) than most think. And you don't have to be in finance or law or medicine to do so. Frankly outside of the true high finance people those aren't the ones that make "real" money anyway.

However, a lot of people think about biz related issues incorrectly, lack an understanding of what it takes to make more, don't have the proper education or are comfortable where they are. Some of those can be overcome but it has to come from the person.

Beyond the scope of this discussion but something I think about often in my line of work so thought this was s spot to drop in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bwslim69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 11:54 AM   #17269
Dochrohan
Pooh-Bah
 
Dochrohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,194
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicheats View Post
I don't know a ton of 200k+ pros but I can say the vast majority of them are not the sickest players in the room. They know how to treat action players well, get private games and are well liked. The complete sickos aren't invited to these games. Instead they battle the other good pros.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Extremely true. If you're not beating casino games for 200k+ it's private games and in most cases you need to be a very social person to get invited.
Dochrohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 11:59 AM   #17270
MikeStarr
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,978
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Speaking of prop bets....I know some guys who whine that playing 1/2 is too hard to beat due to the rake being the same as it is as 2/5 ($5 +$2). Tips are a higher percentage of your pots ect. Too many short stacks and not enough money on the table at 1/2....blah blah blah. They tell me they will be able to crush once they have a roll for 2/5.

I said I could make $30/hr playing 1/2 because so many of the players are clueless and the prop bet was born. I was exaggerating to make a point, but I got called on it so I negotiated 3:1 odds on $500. Of course they have to trust me. At least 100 hrs of 1/2 in December.

Results so far:
118 hours
$5811
$49.20 / hr
19 winning sessions (83%)
4 losing sessions (17%)

StnDev...$124.94/hr

Thoughts:

1) Im finding it a very good exercise in refocusing. I have no reads on anyone and it forces me to concentrate on every hand and find ways to exploit each player in different ways. Ive been on semi auto pilot for a while and I think this will help when I return to my regular games in Jan.

2) I would need more fingers and toes to count the number of people who have asked me why Im playing 1/2 or have looked at me from across the room with a "WTF" look on their face. At least 10 people have approached a friend of mine and asked whats up with me. They probably think Im busto.

3) Actual conversation with dealer:
Dealer..."Im a little worried about you"
Me: "Really Why?"
Dealer: "You're a 2/5 player and you were playing a lot of 5/10 last month and now your HERE?"
Me :"Two words....prop bet".

Memo to dealers....please dont say something like this to a player while at the table!

4) Worst thing about playing 1/2 in my room? The strategy talk is beyond tilting.


Highlight:

UTG straddles to $5. 2 people call. I make it $20 in MP with JJ. SB calls. UTG goes all in for $44. One caller of the $44. I 4 bet to $100. SB shoves all in for $160. Folds back to me and I call.

Board runs out K739T. I think Im beat until the SB proudly tables his Q6. UTG mucks and I drag the pot.

Lowlight:

EP raises $6..next guy calls. I 3 bet to $30 in the SB with AA. EP calls. Next guy shoves all in for $100. I reshove. EP folds. I lose AA vs KK...standard.
MikeStarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 12:01 PM   #17271
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 10,921
*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
I don't think your point is wrong. However I think it is "easier" to make 200k (or pick a number) than most think. And you don't have to be in finance or law or medicine to do so. Frankly outside of the true high finance people those aren't the ones that make "real" money anyway.

However, a lot of people think about biz related issues incorrectly, lack an understanding of what it takes to make more, don't have the proper education or are comfortable where they are. Some of those can be overcome but it has to come from the person.

Beyond the scope of this discussion but something I think about often in my line of work so thought this was s spot to drop in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I work in an office of ~150 people for a company over 5k people. There are probably 10 +/- 3 who make 200k+ in my office. Not impossible, but also not everyone is on that career path

There are probably 30-50 making 100k+, and many are on the path of eventually making that within 5-10 years, whether in my company or in another.

Edit: I'll also say I know/have known people who are straight up terrible at their jobs that are making mid 100k. It's very difficult for superiors to determine level of ability without actually looking at it carefully or getting lots of feedback from others. Most will look at time cards to see how much work is getting charged and base opinions off of that, which is a terrible way to assess things, but is how it tends to happen

Last edited by johnny_on_the_spot; 12-24-2016 at 12:08 PM.
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 12:06 PM   #17272
Dochrohan
Pooh-Bah
 
Dochrohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,194
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

@mike, strat talk at the table in general is tilting. Especially the smaller stakes.

They often want you to engage in conversation about their "moves" and you kind of need some go to replies.
Dochrohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 12:20 PM   #17273
MikeStarr
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,978
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochrohan View Post
@mike, strat talk at the table in general is tilting. Especially the smaller stakes.

They often want you to engage in conversation about their "moves" and you kind of need some go to replies.
Strat talk doesn't normally bother me. It can be a good way to find out who knows what they are talking about and you can use that info against them. Sometimes its 2 guys who mutually respect each other and they are talking low so that not everyone can hear.

What I'm talking about is stuff like....

"AA is the hardest hand to play in poker. If you raise you just take down the blinds and if you dont, you get cracked". This came right after I cracked his AA after the guy limped it. The next time he got it he opened to 10BBs and took the blinds. He shows and says "See?"

Guy has JT on a Q98 board and over bet pounds the flop. He takes it down and says "I wasnt messing around there. I was afraid of someone hitting a higher straight on me".

A guy tells me "Youre the master of the late position raise".

If I hear "I had to find out where I was at" one more time Im gonna throat punch someone.
MikeStarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 12:26 PM   #17274
bwslim69
I'm a Diva, Bruh
 
bwslim69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TPS reports
Posts: 24,038
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
I work in an office of ~150 people for a company over 5k people. There are probably 10 +/- 3 who make 200k+ in my office. Not impossible, but also not everyone is on that career path

There are probably 30-50 making 100k+, and many are on the path of eventually making that within 5-10 years, whether in my company or in another.

Edit: I'll also say I know/have known people who are straight up terrible at their jobs that are making mid 100k. It's very difficult for superiors to determine level of ability without actually looking at it carefully or getting lots of feedback from others. Most will look at time cards to see how much work is getting charged and base opinions off of that, which is a terrible way to assess things, but is how it tends to happen


My response is that if someone is expecting to make $XXX by working for an established company that sort of reinforces my point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bwslim69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2016, 12:42 PM   #17275
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 10,921
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
My response is that if someone is expecting to make $XXX by working for an established company that sort of reinforces my point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
i wasn't disagreeing with you. it was more pointing out that 5%+ is making 200k, 20%+ is making 100k+ in an industry that isn't medicine/lawyering/high finance... i think like ~120k puts someone as top 1% in the US for $ earned per household. i looked it up a few years back, it's somewhere in that range, might be 140k, but still not impossible to earn as a single income.

definitely doable for anyone who could make 100k in poker for them to make that much or more in real world jobs with the added benefit of job security, medical coverage, 401ks, less stress. sure, you have to work 2000 hours +, but it's a tradeoff for not having months where we lose money
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive