Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-22-2016, 10:34 AM   #17201
MikeStarr
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,978
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
Avaritia may be right about Florida. I just happen to know a lot of poker players from a lot of different areas. And I know the LA area pretty well. I am also basing my statement off my experience of being a pro since late 2007 (9 years...which makes me a dinosaur live poker vet).

Perhaps I should have been more specific about "getting the hang of it." I was just trying to give both sides of the picture. Of course, professional poker is hard. But if you work hard at poker and figure out the "soft skills" as well as the fundamental skills...you can make 200k+/year consistently.

With the same amount of hard work, dedication, common sense, smarts, etc....it is probably a lot easier to make that kind of income elsewhere too.

But yeah, professional poker is hard. I'll bold it too, so you guys don't think that I am blowing rainbows and sunshine up anyone's rear end.
This is just not true.

A pro who plays 1800 hrs would be considered a work horse. At 1800 hrs he would need to make $111/hr. At 2000 hrs, that's $100/hr.

Playing 5/10, that's 10-11BB/hr. Almost impossible. I'll go out on a limb and say its flat out impossible.
Playing 10/20, its still 5+BB/hr. Hardly anyone playing that high has a win rate that high and I doubt you can get 1800-2000hrs of 10/20 anywhere.

Who is "you"? You make it sound like anyone reading your post can do it. I doubt .1% of all players can do it. Out of those .1% of players, I doubt 1/2 of them can do it "consistently".
MikeStarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 10:37 AM   #17202
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I should probably say that professional poker is getting harder and harder too. Maybe I will have to take back what I said about pros who "get it" making 200k+/year in 2020.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 10:41 AM   #17203
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
This is just not true.

A pro who plays 1800 hrs would be considered a work horse. At 1800 hrs he would need to make $111/hr. At 2000 hrs, that's $100/hr.

Playing 5/10, that's 10-11BB/hr. Almost impossible. I'll go out on a limb and say its flat out impossible.
Playing 10/20, its still 5+BB/hr. Hardly anyone playing that high has a win rate that high and I doubt you can get 1800-2000hrs of 10/20 anywhere.

Who is "you"? You make it sound like anyone reading your post can do it. I doubt .1% of all players can do it. Out of those .1% of players, I doubt 1/2 of them can do it "consistently".
There are plenty of areas that spread 5/10 NL or big Omaha games or big mixed games or whatever. Even if your only option was 5/10 NL, you can make the game play bigger in a lot of ways. One way = straddling. Another way = be a spewtard who attracts action players and entertaining them enough to play marathon sessions with you (whereas they would normally have gone home a long time ago in normal boring live NL lineups). Another way = drinking liberally at poker table and encouraging others to drink with you. I could go on and on.

FWIW, I don't recommend the spewtardedness and alcohol. Both have a lot of downsides, but they are effective at making a normal 5/10 NL game turn into a ridiculously bigger game. And more importantly, they allow a big NLHE game to run for a lot longer (days even) than the normal 3-6 hours where everyone leaves after the biggest spot is gone.

Last edited by ATsai; 12-22-2016 at 10:48 AM.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 10:46 AM   #17204
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

As far as me making up stuff, I play 5/10 NL up to 50/100 NL (mostly 10/20 NL or equivalent like a mandatory straddled 5/10 NL) nowadays...and occasionally a huge PLO game whenever the lineup is so much juicier than NLHE lineup that I forget that I always get crushed in PLO.

Last edited by ATsai; 12-22-2016 at 11:13 AM.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 01:08 PM   #17205
VolumeKing
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 729
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You can make 200k a year playing live poker but almost nobody does. So who cares? Let's focus on what helps 90% of players- 1/2 1/3 and 2/5 stakes.


Has anyone in this thread ever played 1800hrs in a year? Graphs to show?
VolumeKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 01:53 PM   #17206
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Pretty sure squid has.
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 01:59 PM   #17207
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by larswheels View Post
Do you coach? Stake? Are you part of a training site?
Not going to discuss off topic stuff like that in this winrate thread.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 02:04 PM   #17208
Angrist
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,884
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Well, it *is* the LLSNL forum, so I'd say anything above 5/10 stops being "Low" stakes and would be "mid-stakes", which also agrees with the guiding sticky in the main level of the forum.

I play recreationally for fun and extra money to pay for my vices, while having a normal full time job (albeit with a somewhat flexible schedule) and the most I've been able to get in a year was 2016 at 707.6 hours. I'm not sure how I'd be able to fit many more hours into my life without hurting my job situation. So I'd be really impressed with someone getting 2.5x that while having a job and some kind of life (and what to know how they pulled it off).
Angrist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 02:41 PM   #17209
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 7,093
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
Has anyone in this thread ever played 1800hrs in a year? Graphs to show?
I'm around 1800 for the year. I think somewhere in the 800 range would be the ideal number for me in the future, with another 600-700 hours working towards supplemental income streams. Haven't cracked that nut yet however.

I've done some volatility trading this year to supplement poker income but that is incredibly risky and capital intensive and leaves you at the whims of the market which is akin to poker variance.
johnnyBuz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 02:46 PM   #17210
DonkeyCopter
old hand
 
DonkeyCopter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Downtown
Posts: 1,316
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
I'm around 1800 for the year. I think somewhere in the 800 range would be the ideal number for me in the future, with another 600-700 hours working towards supplemental income streams. Haven't cracked that nut yet however.

I've done some volatility trading this year to supplement poker income but that is incredibly risky and capital intensive and leaves you at the whims of the market which is akin to poker variance.
VIX or the futures ETFs?
DonkeyCopter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 03:04 PM   #17211
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,525
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
You can make 200k a year playing live poker but almost nobody does. So who cares? Let's focus on what helps 90% of players- 1/2 1/3 and 2/5 stakes.


Has anyone in this thread ever played 1800hrs in a year? Graphs to show?
Yeah, last 14 months I logged 1850 hours.

The year before that I logged like 1100 in a 9 month period.

And this past year I honestly felt like I'd barely been playing. Entire summer I played a handful of sessions, then took 2 months off when I got back. I play 3 times a week usually, but when I do play I put in 12+ hour sessions
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 03:50 PM   #17212
timmay28
veteran
 
timmay28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,743
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
Has anyone in this thread ever played 1800hrs in a year? Graphs to show?
1831 this yr despite 3 weeks out of the country (didn't play during)

I typically have no problem entering the casino but too often start searching for excuses to leave about 4 hours in. So, mildly surprised that 1800 hrs is considered a lot...
timmay28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:08 PM   #17213
VolumeKing
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 729
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I consider it a lot and I wanted to see if it is a small percentage of players or pros who exceed that number in 12 months.


1800 hours in one year is 34.6 hours a week, all year long
VolumeKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:23 PM   #17214
ZippyThePinhead
adept
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 926
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
I consider it a lot and I wanted to see if it is a small percentage of players or pros who exceed that number in 12 months.
I'm at 943 hours and 26 minutes over the past 12 months. Also have a career that is fairly generous with paid time off (5 weeks a year).

If poker was my sole income, I'd hit 1,800 hours per year easy.

9.37 BB/hr across mix of 1/2, 1/3 and 2/5.

I'd have to absolutely crush at higher than 5/10 to make poker a better choice for me right now. Though I'm not a young fella (late 40's). Early retirement supllimented with poker is an option at some point in my future.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
ZippyThePinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:27 PM   #17215
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I just hit 1000 hours this year.

I also have a very generous work schedule that basically allows me to set my own hours.

I would never go back to full time poker again...
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:30 PM   #17216
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,525
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
With the same amount of hard work, dedication, common sense, smarts, etc....it is probably a lot easier to make that kind of income elsewhere too.
I keep seeing this being said over and over, but I dont know if thats true.

I mean to say that its absolutely achievable, but I don't know if I'd classify it as "easier". My life is fairly easy right now because of poker. If I wanted to start making 100k-200k/year via "real" job it'd require taking ~4-6 years of my life and 50-100k worth of debt (on top of ~200k+ of opportunity cost -- I'm putting it on the lower scale because I'm assuming I'd still play part time through school) to even get to that point. And even after that, life would be a very big grind.

It's probably something worth exploring as I currently don't have any "real" exit plan other than saving up enough money to eventually start investing. But I suppose worst case scenario of the poker economy suddenly collapsing, I start that horrific "life grind" a little later in life with some more money saved up.
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:40 PM   #17217
Dizzyqtp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dizzyqtp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,384
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post

If poker was my sole income, I'd hit 1,800 hours per year easy.
lol +1 - I worked about 2,200 hours this year (and my hours are not bad) and still played 813 hours of poker so far in 2016. I get that putting hours in at the casino is nothing like putting hours in at the office, but 1,800 hours/year being considered "a lot" to work at your full time job is absurd to me.
Dizzyqtp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:44 PM   #17218
johnny_on_the_spot
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnny_on_the_spot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: S-Mart
Posts: 10,928
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
I keep seeing this being said over and over, but I dont know if thats true.

I mean to say that its absolutely achievable, but I don't know if I'd classify it as "easier". My life is fairly easy right now because of poker. If I wanted to start making 100k-200k/year via "real" job it'd require taking ~4-6 years of my life and 50-100k worth of debt (on top of ~200k+ of opportunity cost -- I'm putting it on the lower scale because I'm assuming I'd still play part time through school) to even get to that point. And even after that, life would be a very big grind.

It's probably something worth exploring as I currently don't have any "real" exit plan other than saving up enough money to eventually start investing. But I suppose worst case scenario of the poker economy suddenly collapsing, I start that horrific "life grind" a little later in life with some more money saved up.
as someone who has a 6 figure job, i can assure you it's not that hard and all the bad #s in your post can be minimized if you have some common sense + a little bit of planning
johnny_on_the_spot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 05:11 PM   #17219
nicname
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big 12
Posts: 627
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm ending the year for 2016 at 791 hours as a part-timer who works 40+ per week at my real job.

I've thought about giving just poker a try often (Ms. Nicname makes good money) and tossed around schedules for myself.

I really think about 1600 hours is ideal for someone wanting the "freedom" aspect of poker.

I rarely get tired of playing or feel burnt out, but I think a lot of that is that poker is still the "side hustle" which makes it more fun.

Obviously, I'll never know until I try. I do feel like my life situation is pretty much the ideal for someone wanting to "go pro." Ms. Nicname's income is more than enough to pay the bills. I'm confident a full time poker schedule would earn me more than just my full time job up until the top tier of advancement. Benefits would also be taken care of.

It's an odd situation. I don't love my current job or my work schedule, but I like my company and the industry I'm in. I took the job hoping to get my foot in the door for another position, but that hasn't materialized.

I'm up about $26,500 for the year from poker and usually play Sunday afternoons, some weekday morning games, wednesday evenings, and rarer late night thursday or saturday sessions (these when I'm) very tired.

I'd really like to have more time to do things like coach my son's sports teams.

Ms. Nicname has said that if we ever have another kid, she wants me to quit working, play poker and be poker dad.
nicname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 05:44 PM   #17220
Ranma4703
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: she / her
Posts: 3,010
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
as someone who has a 6 figure job, i can assure you it's not that hard and all the bad #s in your post can be minimized if you have some common sense + a little bit of planning
Yeah ditto, I only barely crack 6 figures but I work 4 days a week, no more than 8 hours a day, and get full health coverage + equity.

Poker can't compete with programming as a career.
Ranma4703 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 05:49 PM   #17221
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 7,093
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyCopter View Post
VIX or the futures ETFs?
Mostly XIV/SVXY. There are some good option strategies on Seeking Alpha regarding UVXY but I have a feeling you can get burned very quickly.
johnnyBuz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 05:57 PM   #17222
OvertlySexual
old hand
 
OvertlySexual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,527
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

1800 hours are a ton if we are talking about pure hours of playing poker. This means there's another 150 hours or so on break in the casino which in another job would have been considered as work time.

Then there's commuting. In my case commuting back and forth is on average one and half to two hours, so if you re doing 200 sessions per year that's another 300 to 400 hours of your life in a car.

Then you have to study. That's also a few dozens of hours at least. Then -and I know some people may sneer at this- there's spending time on forums such as this which is very much akin to professional gossip and networking. So that's another 100 hours on top of that.

All in all, 1800 hours of poker may mean 2500 hours of actually dealing with stuff related to poker. That's a ton of hours in my book.

I know that on my days off I am a broken man and I just want to space out. On the other hand, being my own employer means that I cut some slack on myself and I am not as disciplined as I could be. OTOH, being your own employer means that it's tough to have a lot of true free time, as you re constantly thinking about stuff you want to do, so it's tough to feel you have rested. I know that's true of me, even though I am not as productive as I would want to.

Last but not least, I can't imagine many people who would want to have poker as a long term career that they will retire from when they are 65-70. The goal for most I think is to build a financial cushion that will let you transition to something else. This however also may mean additional working hours as you re trying to figure options and work on side-projects.

Last edited by OvertlySexual; 12-22-2016 at 06:05 PM.
OvertlySexual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 06:05 PM   #17223
feel wrath
The Situation
 
feel wrath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 23,926
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
1800 hours are a ton if we are talking about pure hours of playing poker. This means there's another 150 hours or so on break in the casino which in another job would have been considered as work time.

Then there's commuting. In my case commuting is on average one and half to two hours, so if you re doing 200 sessions per year that's another 300 to 400 hours of your life in a car.

Then you have to study and although some people may sneer at this, spending time on forums such as this is very much akin to professional gossip and networking. So that's another 200 hours on top of that.

All in all, 1800 hours of poker may mean 2500 hours of actually dealing with stuff related to poker and that's a ton of hours.

I know that on my days off I am a broken man and I just want to space out. On the other hand, being my own employer means that I cut some slack on myself and I am not as disciplined as I could be. OTOH, being your own employer means that it's tough to have a lot of true free time, as you re constantly thinking about stuff you want to do.

Last but not least, I can't imagine many people who would want to have poker as a long term career that he will retire from when he's 65-70. The goal for most I think is to build a financial cushion that will let you transition to something else, but this also may mean additional hours as you re trying to figure options and work on side-projects.


I think this is an excellent post

When counting hours of work, we need to count 'billable hours' or equivalent and not 'time spent at the office' or even worse 'time spent away from home in the direction of work'.

I run a small professional services business and honestly believe that while I am probably at my desk or going to and from meetings for 50-55 hours per week, my billable hours are under 30.

Playing your A and B game poker is hard work and actually doing that for 1800 'billable hours' per year would be very tiring
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 06:13 PM   #17224
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,215
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

ATsai I really don't like to quarrel with you bc I think you're a good guy / good player buts it's just this one thing that sort of puts sand in my vag.

I think you are perhaps blinded by the sheer volume/wealth that there is in the cali market.

I've made several contacts from cali that have all said the same thing "so where in the f*** are these mystical Florida games I hear about?" Because there aren't any. I truthfully showed you there is a max of four 5/10+ games that run in this entire region.

No matter how good you are. No matter how much of a crusher you are. That's 4 total games. And while they aren't exactly filled with crushers (a few are) they aren't filled with huge losers either. Not anymore.

In the year I played as a live pro, I did not play in a single game that came anywhere close to the worst game I've ever seen on LATB. It's just not here.

Florida was quite a bright candle when poker first blossomed. But it burnt itself out, rather quickly. At high stakes anyway.

The wealth/discretionary spending of a market is severely underestimated when it comes to poker. And LA has it.

The reason why I put my foot down so firmly on this is bc you have people making real life decisions based on this sort of information. And people need to realize that it is literally, LITERALLY, easier to make six figures on youtube than it is in live poker. (If we define easy as % of population currently doing it)

Honestly. There are more brain surgeons in South Florida than there are pros making $200K. When you think about it that way that college degree doesn't look like such a bad idea.
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 06:21 PM   #17225
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,525
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post

Last but not least, I can't imagine many people who would want to have poker as a long term career that they will retire from when they are 65-70. The goal for most I think is to build a financial cushion that will let you transition to something else.
Yeah, pretty much where I'm at. About 2 years in and not even the slightest clue what that "something else" might be.

Here's to hoping I make it to 25/50 plo in the next 2 years and won't need a something else
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive