Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-21-2016, 12:34 PM   #17176
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 33,367
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
+1,000,000
+1

Having an ok-to-well paying job (so long as that job ain't requiring an ungodly amount of hours or is super stressful or sucks the soul out of us) that puts us in good financial shape while keeping poker as a hobby (that hopefully makes us a little cash on the side) is the stone cold nuts.

GimoG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 12:37 PM   #17177
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 33,367
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
There's so much more to "variance" than just aiev that's often ignored and makes as much difference.
Couple sessions ago I played with a well known maniac. He's going to burn thru 4 BIs like he usually does in about an hour or so by blind raising, playing blind to the turn, shipping huge preflop blind, chasing 2 outers, etc. Anyhoo, he's doing his thing and is down about 2 BIs when he decides to take a smoke break and miss a couple hands. My neighbour wakes up with AA during his smoke break.

GjustanotherformofvarianceG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 12:48 PM   #17178
VolumeKing
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 729
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
arent your monthly expenses like 2k/month?

lol you gatta put in more hours bruh, gatta build dat roll
I spend about 7k a month. My bills are at least 4K but lol vacations

My hours this year suck, I didn't save money and I basically took three full months off. I learned good BRM though. New strategy is to buy in for 80bbs until I have 40buyins. It's making a huge difference. Buying in for $400 vs $500 or $1k really matters when your entire poker roll is $10k

Last edited by VolumeKing; 12-21-2016 at 12:59 PM.
VolumeKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 12:49 PM   #17179
Dizzyqtp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Dizzyqtp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,384
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
+1

Having an ok-to-well paying job (so long as that job ain't requiring an ungodly amount of hours or is super stressful or sucks the soul out of us) that puts us in good financial shape while keeping poker as a hobby (that hopefully makes us a little cash on the side) is the stone cold nuts.

GimoG
yeah +1 to this.

As much as I would love to go the professional poker route for the lifestyle, the work full time/play poker on the side strategy has been working out pretty well for me.

Albeit I would probably consider myself closer to 'semi-pro' than a hobbyist based on the amount of hours I play and the % of my income I earn from poker, but it is really nice to not have the stress of needing consistent poker results as my only source of income.

The only downside is the lack of free time/sleep that comes from working full time and putting in 800 hours of poker on top of that, but I do enjoy playing and do a decent job at life balance/trying to get sleep.
Dizzyqtp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 01:01 PM   #17180
WPT
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 28
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
NOPE, not in 2017. And I'm not afraid of responding this way even though the way you phrase your posts is basically saying "anyone that disagrees doesn't get it".

It's just not true. There are less than 10 people in South Florida that could make >$150k a year consistently. And I'd truthfully put it at 5 who regularly do.
Really? This is a bit surprising to me, of course I don't play in those games. I just assumed when I see 10-25 running at the isle or hollywood on bravo that the game probably had 6+ crushers in it.
WPT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 01:55 PM   #17181
Ranma4703
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: she / her
Posts: 3,008
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Probably not going to play any more this year, so here is my giraffe:


Mostly 2/5, with some 5/10 and 10/25 mixed in, 23,900 is from 2/5 at $91/hour so I don't think the higher stakes are distorting the graph any. Obviously ran like Rah, won my biggest pot @ $4600 in a 3 way all in with top set at 2/5, lost my biggest pots with AK vs AQ (3800 ai preflop at 10/25) and AA vs 66 on A636 at 5/10 ($4000 ai on the turn).
Ranma4703 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 02:20 PM   #17182
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Wow, $91/hr in 2/5! Why wouldn't you put in more hours?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 02:22 PM   #17183
The Rumor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
The Rumor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wherever my loanshark isn't
Posts: 9,559
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Makes sense.



I would do one better and find a job that doesn't require full-time commitment.

40k salary + 40k poker would probably feel better than either of the two options.
Gotta consider that you may have to be full-time or almost full time to get benefits
The Rumor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 02:45 PM   #17184
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 33,367
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by WPT View Post
the game probably had 6+ crushers in it.
Unless the 4- seats are taken up by the biggest whales in the history of poker, I'm guessing it's virtually impossible for any long term game to always have 6+ crushers sitting in it.

Gno?G
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 02:55 PM   #17185
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Unless the 4- seats are taken up by the biggest whales in the history of poker, I'm guessing it's virtually impossible for any long term game to always have 6+ crushers sitting in it.

Gno?G
If you're not a whale, you're a crusher, ldo?

How else can you be playing 10/25?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 04:03 PM   #17186
Maskk
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: DC Area
Posts: 2,083
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
Completely agree with this.



AIEV is such a small aspect of what variance encompasses as a whole, though it is really the only part we can realistically quantify hence why the stat is used at all -- though it is a highly overrated stat

Always agreed w this. AIEV is an awful variance metric especially for LESS taggy styles (for maniac/stations a big part of the WR comes from light calls and bluffs). So if a crappy loose player runs hot and can either call or have it way more than he mathematically should, its a crappy form of variance.

Also, if you miss super-well prices draws half a standard deviation below average or above average could make a world of diff to the W/R. And none of that is priced easily not easy to track/remember.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Maskk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 04:44 PM   #17187
feel wrath
The Situation
 
feel wrath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: lost on the turn
Posts: 23,857
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by WPT View Post
Really? This is a bit surprising to me, of course I don't play in those games. I just assumed when I see 10-25 running at the isle or hollywood on bravo that the game probably had 6+ crushers in it.


How can you think that 6 people crush the same game?
feel wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 05:46 PM   #17188
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,215
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

What's even funnier is there is no 10/25 at Hardrock (what the poster referred to as "hollywood"). There's very, very rarely a 5/10.

Which is why I come in from time to time to tell people the truth, because so much mis-information is spread about win rates and games in general (not just Florida, all over)

There's 1-2 main 5/10s at isle. Theres the 10/25 at isle. There's 1 main 5/10 at PBKC (winter only).

That's 4 games. In the entire region. Keep in mind (alot of people sincerely forget this) that you can't walk into PBKC on a Tuesday at 11am and have the 5/10 running. Then when it finally is running God bless you if you didn't open it and have to be on the list.

Even if you put in solid volume you are looking at 30 good hours per week for your high stakes volume.

I used to know most of the regulars by name. I won't out them but less than 5 people have sincerely impressed me in South Florida. I'm not saying I'm better than most. I'm probably not in the top 50 of regulars that play live poker here. But I'm talking about the top very good players in both skill and social aspect and who put in hardcore volume (last aspect being hardest part of live poker)

If you want a true representation of what a grinders year looks like, loop over to LLApex's thread in PG&C. One of the few threads I believe to be fully honest/open about results.

I will say I'm least familiar with the 10/25 at isle. My understanding is there is one giant whale that feeds the game with possibly 1-2 other bad players, the rest of the players would likely be in my top 10 list but don't qualify for $200K due to volume. I could be way off on this one bc again have not sat the game. I don't even know if it still runs regularly. I know a player I considered to be either #1 or #2 never sat it. Which is a part of the reason I knew he was the best.
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 05:51 PM   #17189
DonkeyCopter
old hand
 
DonkeyCopter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Downtown
Posts: 1,316
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
How can you think that 6 people crush the same game?
LOL I thought the same thing.

Probably a stretch to say even 4 people can crush the same game at the same time. 2 seems like a more reasonable number.
DonkeyCopter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 07:13 PM   #17190
WPT
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 28
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
How can you think that 6 people crush the same game?
Ok, thinking about it further, that definitely sounds a little stupid on my part. I guess what I meant was when loose whales are in every hand, and the pros are basically taking turns or waiting for hands. I've only played 10-25 twice so I haven't differentiated the crusher pros from the ones playing too high or taking a shot.
WPT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 07:18 PM   #17191
OvertlySexual
old hand
 
OvertlySexual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,515
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

It's possible there are 6 people who would crush all the 2/5s but play for modest wins on 10/25. Regardless, no matter how bad the whale and the bad players, having so many good players should lower BB per hour and make variance hurt more.
OvertlySexual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 10:55 PM   #17192
gus1112
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 984
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Lies. Tons of great games in FLA, many super juicy 5/10s at all the clubs! Head on down to get the snowbirds
gus1112 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2016, 11:58 PM   #17193
meale
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
meale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 9,840
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
NOPE, not in 2017. And I'm not afraid of responding this way even though the way you phrase your posts is basically saying "anyone that disagrees doesn't get it".
It's not as though live games are so much harder today compared to 10 years ago like it is in the online scene...

Quote:
There's so much more to "variance" than just aiev that's often ignored and makes as much difference.
Obviously. Can't really measure it for live though like you can in the online games.

Quote:
My neighbour wakes up with AA during his smoke break.

GjustanotherformofvarianceG
Yup +1

But careful, people ITT think variance is interchangeable only with stdev which it's not.

Quote:
I learned good BRM though. New strategy is to buy in for 80bbs until I have 40buyins. It's making a huge difference. Buying in for $400 vs $500 or $1k really matters when your entire poker roll is $10k
Seems like a pretty awful strategy if you like money. I think your problem is spending too much on food/massages.

Quote:
If you want a true representation of what a grinders year looks like, loop over to LLApex's thread in PG&C. One of the few threads I believe to be fully honest/open about results.
+1,000,000
meale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 02:38 AM   #17194
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,517
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
I spend about 7k a month. My bills are at least 4K but lol vacations

My hours this year suck, I didn't save money and I basically took three full months off. I learned good BRM though. New strategy is to buy in for 80bbs until I have 40buyins. It's making a huge difference. Buying in for $400 vs $500 or $1k really matters when your entire poker roll is $10k
Wait what the ****. How are you net down 50k this year and not broke?
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 02:46 AM   #17195
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

A lot doesn't make sense.

If he can sustain 7k/month life style, why is he grinding LLSNL, let alone lots and lots of it?
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 02:54 AM   #17196
VolumeKing
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 729
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
Wait what the ****. How are you net down 50k this year and not broke?
I Began working in may. I am deciding whether or not to try playing professionally in 2017. If I have a good December I might do it. So far I've played 109 hours since the 9th and I've won $3800. Not great but 6bb an hr is actually really good.

I do feel broke though.
VolumeKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 04:48 AM   #17197
johnnyBuz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
johnnyBuz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Beast Coast
Posts: 7,092
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolumeKing View Post
I Began working in may. I am deciding whether or not to try playing professionally in 2017. If I have a good December I might do it. So far I've played 109 hours since the 9th and I've won $3800. Not great but 6bb an hr is actually really good.

I do feel broke though.
Pro rata that's 115k per annum. You be aight.
johnnyBuz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 09:28 AM   #17198
MikeStarr
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,978
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
What's even funnier is there is no 10/25 at Hardrock (what the poster referred to as "hollywood"). There's very, very rarely a 5/10.

Which is why I come in from time to time to tell people the truth, because so much mis-information is spread about win rates and games in general (not just Florida, all over)

There's 1-2 main 5/10s at isle. Theres the 10/25 at isle. There's 1 main 5/10 at PBKC (winter only).

That's 4 games. In the entire region. Keep in mind (alot of people sincerely forget this) that you can't walk into PBKC on a Tuesday at 11am and have the 5/10 running. Then when it finally is running God bless you if you didn't open it and have to be on the list.

Even if you put in solid volume you are looking at 30 good hours per week for your high stakes volume.

I used to know most of the regulars by name. I won't out them but less than 5 people have sincerely impressed me in South Florida. I'm not saying I'm better than most. I'm probably not in the top 50 of regulars that play live poker here. But I'm talking about the top very good players in both skill and social aspect and who put in hardcore volume (last aspect being hardest part of live poker)

If you want a true representation of what a grinders year looks like, loop over to LLApex's thread in PG&C. One of the few threads I believe to be fully honest/open about results.

I will say I'm least familiar with the 10/25 at isle. My understanding is there is one giant whale that feeds the game with possibly 1-2 other bad players, the rest of the players would likely be in my top 10 list but don't qualify for $200K due to volume. I could be way off on this one bc again have not sat the game. I don't even know if it still runs regularly. I know a player I considered to be either #1 or #2 never sat it. Which is a part of the reason I knew he was the best.
I can verify that this is 100% accurate.

PS...Based on Avaritia's knowledge of these games, we must know each other. Hmmm.....
MikeStarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 10:09 AM   #17199
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,215
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I can verify that this is 100% accurate.

PS...Based on Avaritia's knowledge of these games, we must know each other. Hmmm.....
Heh, thanks for adding some validity to my rambling.

And I'm sure we have, I'm the guy getting 150 bigs aipf with AA vs AK running it twice and losing both runs.

Don't play much in your location nowadays fwiw
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2016, 10:15 AM   #17200
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Avaritia may be right about Florida. I just happen to know a lot of poker players from a lot of different areas. And I know the LA area pretty well. I am also basing my statement off my experience of being a pro since late 2007 (9 years...which makes me a dinosaur live poker vet).

Perhaps I should have been more specific about "getting the hang of it." I was just trying to give both sides of the picture. Of course, professional poker is hard. But if you work hard at poker and figure out the "soft skills" as well as the fundamental skills...you can make 200k+/year consistently.

With the same amount of hard work, dedication, common sense, smarts, etc....it is probably a lot easier to make that kind of income elsewhere too.

But yeah, professional poker is hard. I'll bold it too, so you guys don't think that I am blowing rainbows and sunshine up anyone's rear end.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive