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Old 11-24-2016, 04:43 AM   #16951
nicname
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If you're wondering why I have the results filtered, it's because I have a bbj table share that I didn't want to include.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:23 AM   #16952
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

nice results, ive been wanting to share mine but ive just only surpassed 400h, want to at least hit 500h
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:26 AM   #16953
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I'm a serious rec player who plays deep stack 1/2 (plays more like 2/5) once or twice a week. I obviously want to win but the money isn't really material to me one way or the other. I play to have a good time. If I wanted to make money I'd work. If you think that most of the people you play with are there to actually make money, you don't really understand their motivations.

There absolutely is a very good chance I'm way off here. I just recently started playing poker often in a big poker market but based off what I have seen so far I still feel Like I'm not too far out of touch. This opinion is based off of 5/5 500 cap and 5/10. I don't get how you can be a serious Rec player and not let it be about the money. If serious-> want to win-> winning translates to money. Even if you don't care about the money, you do care about winning. By no means are you going to the casino to lose 30k with a smile on your face while some obnoxiopus reg follows you around trying to be clever and pretend to want to gamble with you. Since most recs do care about winning, I feel it isn't becoming of regs to treat recs like customers in the patronizing way that they do because few are there to lose money in a poker room. I'm probably biased because I haven't had much experience at resort/casinos just mainly poker rooms but still.

Are you a winning player? Most people don't enjoy losing. Most people like activities that they can prove their perceived or real superiority. If you ask players to rank themselves among their table from best to worst I'm sure most wouldn't rank themselves towards the bottom. Not a coincidence.
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Old 11-24-2016, 12:09 PM   #16954
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Welp, it isn't on a note that I'd like, but I've reached 1,000 hours of poker.
Very nice results, congrats!

I had very similar results over my first 1000 hours of 1/3 NL at 9.65 bb/hr. Maintained about the same rate over the second 1000 hours at 9.24 bb/hr. Then the bottom fell out on the third 1000 hours at 4.58 bb/hr.

Ghopeyouareabletomaintainyourpace!G
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Old 11-24-2016, 12:48 PM   #16955
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Originally Posted by 7weeks2days View Post
There absolutely is a very good chance I'm way off here. I just recently started playing poker often in a big poker market but based off what I have seen so far I still feel Like I'm not too far out of touch. This opinion is based off of 5/5 500 cap and 5/10. I don't get how you can be a serious Rec player and not let it be about the money. If serious-> want to win-> winning translates to money. Even if you don't care about the money, you do care about winning. By no means are you going to the casino to lose 30k with a smile on your face while some obnoxiopus reg follows you around trying to be clever and pretend to want to gamble with you. Since most recs do care about winning, I feel it isn't becoming of regs to treat recs like customers in the patronizing way that they do because few are there to lose money in a poker room. I'm probably biased because I haven't had much experience at resort/casinos just mainly poker rooms but still.

Are you a winning player? Most people don't enjoy losing. Most people like activities that they can prove their perceived or real superiority. If you ask players to rank themselves among their table from best to worst I'm sure most wouldn't rank themselves towards the bottom. Not a coincidence.
I've won and am certainly up lifetime though no idea how much is run good.

I agree everyone wants to feel like a winner and like they are good at poker. However that's different than playing for money. At the stakes I play at (1/2 deep stack games in NYC clubs and 2/5 at the casino) I'm never going to make or lose enough in the 300 or so hours I'll play in a year to make a meaningful difference in my lifestyle. I suspect that a lot of people you play with or want to play with feel similarly.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:27 PM   #16956
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Originally Posted by 7weeks2days View Post
Most people don't enjoy losing. Most people like activities that they can prove their perceived or real superiority.
You're still over-simplifying it.

Yes, rec players obviously prefer winning > losing. Yes, they would like getting money > losing money. But to suggest that they walk into the casino with the intention of making money each day is false, they are smart people -- they understand they are there to gamble. Now, if you told them they are guaranteed to lose, they would not come back. It's just like playing slots to them, they realize its more likely to lose than win, but the thrill of winning and the fun of the atmosphere is more than sufficient for them to keep coming back

And to MIB's point, the money being played for is insignificant to effect their life style (which is the main point). Those who are not rich and who's lives are actually effected by the money being won lost (e.g. purchase decisions) will obviously have a much different view on the game more often than not. But the majority of consistent rec players in mid stakes games are well off.
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Old 11-24-2016, 02:41 PM   #16957
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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
You're still over-simplifying it.

Yes, rec players obviously prefer winning > losing. Yes, they would like getting money > losing money. But to suggest that they walk into the casino with the intention of making money each day is false, they are smart people -- they understand they are there to gamble. Now, if you told them they are guaranteed to lose, they would not come back. It's just like playing slots to them, they realize its more likely to lose than win, but the thrill of winning and the fun of the atmosphere is more than sufficient for them to keep coming back
I disagree.

Very small minority of players walks in the casino thinking they're more likely to lose than win...

Most players walk into the casino expecting to win.

However, when they actually sit down at the table, other emotions take over and winning moves down the priority list.

For example, when a megawhale is stuck $2000 and people are "giving him no respect" by calling all his bets. In his mind, he might be thinking "I am going to teach these guys some lessons!"
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:02 PM   #16958
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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
You're still over-simplifying it.

Yes, rec players obviously prefer winning > losing. Yes, they would like getting money > losing money. But to suggest that they walk into the casino with the intention of making money each day is false, they are smart people -- they understand they are there to gamble. Now, if you told them they are guaranteed to lose, they would not come back. It's just like playing slots to them, they realize its more likely to lose than win, but the thrill of winning and the fun of the atmosphere is more than sufficient for them to keep coming back

And to MIB's point, the money being played for is insignificant to effect their life style (which is the main point). Those who are not rich and who's lives are actually effected by the money being won lost (e.g. purchase decisions) will obviously have a much different view on the game more often than not. But the majority of consistent rec players in mid stakes games are well off.

I'm not really sure what makes your over simplification more accurate than mine. Again I think the "fun" atmosphere is specific to the card room and whether or not you play at a resort/casino as opposed to just a casino or a card room. Generally speaking I think you may be over estimating the amount of recs with the attitude you describe in the non resort/casino environment. In the same way I may be overestimating the other end of the spectrum. Either way, it all semantic anyway.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:55 PM   #16959
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

This is a lot of weird tangenting even for the wr thread.

Can we just agree that 80% of people that walk into a casino are stupid and that they have the idea that they have the chance to win money? Similar to a scratch off. They don't buy them expecting to win but more so out of the possibility.

Then there are the 10% that know they are going to win and that luck just hasn't been on their side lately.

And finally there are the 10% that understand the concept EV (they might not call it expected value, but they understand the casino games favor the casino) and that they are playing a losing expectation, but they are successful enough to ngaf and they know that craps is really a fun game.

I do think there are alot more rec players that don't really care one way or the other, more than people realize. Again not that they think they are losing or winning. Not that they are made of money. Just that they enjoy poker and they have the possibility to have a good night.
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:51 PM   #16960
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For a game that revolves around conflicts, it always baffles me why people are so against arguments.

Why do we need to agree on anything? Arguing is how we learn new things.

Latest argument is pretty interesting, because now we are dissecting why some people choose to walk into a poker room. It would help to think in these players' shoes and further improve our ability to beat them.

Last edited by Richard Parker; 11-24-2016 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:46 AM   #16961
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
For a game that revolves around conflicts, it always baffles me why people are so against arguments.

Why do we need to agree on anything? Arguing is how we learn new things.

Latest argument is pretty interesting, because now we are dissecting why some people choose to walk into a poker room. It would help to think in these players' shoes and further improve our ability to beat them.
We don't, i think its more about that this is not really the place for it. I believe the tangent was my fault.
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:03 AM   #16962
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I would argue that many of these people are not consciously thinking much at all about the reasons they are walking into the poker room or into the casino to play any other game. I think some people are delusional enough to believe they are winning players at the game, and others, subconsciously, are driven more by the idea of winning a certain amount of money than losing a certain amount, so much so that they are willing to ignore EV and not think about the fact that they are playing a losing game. I think almost no one, if not exactly no one is going into the casino and thinking to themselves, "I know this is a losing proposition according to EV, but I will place a wager anyway, as I find the entertainment value worth what I am losing in the long run".

Last edited by BirdsallSa; 11-25-2016 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:11 AM   #16963
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I would argue that many of these people are not consciously thinking much at all about the reasons they are walking into the poker room or into the casino to play any other game. I think some people are delusional enough to believe they are winning players at the game, and others, subconsciously, are driven more by the idea of winning a certain amount of money than losing a certain amount, so much so that they are willing to ignore EV and not think about the fact that they are playing a losing game. I think almost no one, if not exactly no one is going into the casino and thinking to themselves, "I know this is a losing proposition according to EV, but I will place a wager anyway, as I find the entertainment value worth what I am losing in the long run".

Edit: That was more relevant to losing regs. There can be a lot of explanations for big losing recs that play only so often. For instance, a lot of people will set aside a certain amount of money for a trip that they are planning to spend, and once they leave that money is already lost to them. So, if a losing rec loses everything he came with gambling it doesn't register as a loss in his mind, because the money was lost the moment he stepped out of the house, but if he wins it does register as a win. So this player can find self justification as a winner.
I agree with a lot of this. I wonder what poker market YGOchamp plays in that has this large crowd of recs who dump tons just for the fun that the casino environment provides for them.
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Old 11-25-2016, 04:28 AM   #16964
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
For a game that revolves around conflicts, it always baffles me why people are so against arguments.

Why do we need to agree on anything? Arguing is how we learn new things.

Latest argument is pretty interesting, because now we are dissecting why some people choose to walk into a poker room. It would help to think in these players' shoes and further improve our ability to beat them.
I would completely agree with this entire post, but that'd be too ironic

Good post, and would like to highlight this as far as mods are concerned, that so long as the conversation is civil and not completely worthless, it really should be a non-issue. (complete de-rails and e-peening are another issue ofc)
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Old 11-25-2016, 04:30 AM   #16965
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I think it wasn't necessarily a huge market of people who just love to dump -- but more to Birds point, I think most are not actively thinking about the prospect, but if were asked directly, they would likely admit they think they're a (slight) underdog. Just like those playing blackjack, they don't actively think about how they're giving up a 1% edge or whatever every time they play, but they do it anyway.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:18 AM   #16966
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Originally Posted by BirdsallSa View Post
I would argue that many of these people are not consciously thinking much at all about the reasons they are walking into the poker room or into the casino to play any other game. I think some people are delusional enough to believe they are winning players at the game, and others, subconsciously, are driven more by the idea of winning a certain amount of money than losing a certain amount, so much so that they are willing to ignore EV and not think about the fact that they are playing a losing game. I think almost no one, if not exactly no one is going into the casino and thinking to themselves, "I know this is a losing proposition according to EV, but I will place a wager anyway, as I find the entertainment value worth what I am losing in the long run".
Man, most of the people that walk into the casino can't even spell EV.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:22 AM   #16967
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I think it wasn't necessarily a huge market of people who just love to dump -- but more to Birds point, I think most are not actively thinking about the prospect, but if were asked directly, they would likely admit they think they're a (slight) underdog. Just like those playing blackjack, they don't actively think about how they're giving up a 1% edge or whatever every time they play, but they do it anyway.
Its nothing like blackjack or slots or any other house game. There is no grey area with slot/black jack advantage which is known by 99.9% of even the most degenest of the degen. In poker, its person to person, the only way to determine your edge or lack there of are your results or your opinion which the player measures accurately or inaccurately. For people who don't actively think about edge, its probably because they assume by default that they have one because they are awesome.

Most of the time IME, the only people using the word "gamble" when playing poker are the obnoxious regs who are patronizing a rec who they think is stupid, or when they gii pre w/ anything but AA or 2p+.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:13 AM   #16968
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Question that's prob been answered a million times... What is an average 2/5 live tightish/taggy standard deviation/100?

I ask because people ITT have been quoting some ridiculous numbers. According to pokerdope 60-80bb/100 is standard for full ring games. Why do I see people using seemingly crazy/much bigger numbers here? Are people confusing sdev/100 and sdev/hour?
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:50 AM   #16969
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Question that's prob been answered a million times... What is an average 2/5 live tightish/taggy standard deviation/100?



I ask because people ITT have been quoting some ridiculous numbers. According to pokerdope 60-80bb/100 is standard for full ring games. Why do I see people using seemingly crazy/much bigger numbers here? Are people confusing sdev/100 and sdev/hour?


1) no one keeps track of bb/100

2) 60-80bb/100 would be ridiculously low


A typical taggy 2/5 players would probably be something like 60-70bb/hr. A little lower is possible and so is much higher.

Live poker goes 5 way to the flop for 5bb each... it is much higher variance than online. 50% vpip vs 15% vpip will do that...
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:15 AM   #16970
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1) no one keeps track of bb/100

2) 60-80bb/100 would be ridiculously low


A typical taggy 2/5 players would probably be something like 60-70bb/hr. A little lower is possible and so is much higher.

Live poker goes 5 way to the flop for 5bb each... it is much higher variance than online. 50% vpip vs 15% vpip will do that...
I see. Thanks for your help.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:27 AM   #16971
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Most of the time IME, the only people using the word "gamble" when playing poker are the obnoxious regs who are patronizing a rec who they think is stupid, or when they gii pre w/ anything but AA or 2p+.
I've played 1-2 and some limit tables where most of the table literally play poker like it's a slot machine, calling down street after street with next to nothing. And sincere table chatter to the effect that, "yeah there's some skill, but mostly it's just gambling."

They'll admit there are some 'sharks' out there, but still...mostly gambling.

These are weird tables to play at because no one respects your bets. You're left trying to mine the nuts. I prefer players with a little more skill, and sense.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:58 PM   #16972
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I've played 1-2 and some limit tables where most of the table literally play poker like it's a slot machine, calling down street after street with next to nothing. And sincere table chatter to the effect that, "yeah there's some skill, but mostly it's just gambling."



They'll admit there are some 'sharks' out there, but still...mostly gambling.



These are weird tables to play at because no one respects your bets. You're left trying to mine the nuts. I prefer players with a little more skill, and sense.


Just value bet and don't bluff. Bad players don't understand this and complain about the other bad players playing any 2 cards. Just flop TPTK+ and value bet the crap out of people
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:35 AM   #16973
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Should a winning player have a similar hourly in a 8/16 limit game that they would have in a 1/2 NL game? Will the limit structure greatly reduce skill edge?
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:48 AM   #16974
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Should a winning player have a similar hourly in a 8/16 limit game that they would have in a 1/2 NL game? Will the limit structure greatly reduce skill edge?
With my admittedly limited knowledge of limit games, you should prolly do better at 8/16. 2bb/hour is what a good limit player can make, so that's $32/hour?

Where as most won't make over $16-$20 an hour in a 1/2 NL game.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:51 AM   #16975
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Question that's prob been answered a million times... What is an average 2/5 live tightish/taggy standard deviation/100?

I ask because people ITT have been quoting some ridiculous numbers. According to pokerdope 60-80bb/100 is standard for full ring games. Why do I see people using seemingly crazy/much bigger numbers here? Are people confusing sdev/100 and sdev/hour?

My std deviation is $307/hr at 2/5 over 258 hours this year. Winrate is 93/hour (running hot obviously). $1000 buyin.

At 25 hands an hour, that is 1228/100, or 250bb/100, which seems a little high but standard-ish for a deep game.
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