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Old 11-21-2016, 09:15 PM   #16926
cAmmAndo
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

My room spreads 2/4/6 currently 6 total games, 5 NL and that one. An old nitty guy I know beats it for less than a big bet. He is without a doubt the tightest player in the game.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:32 PM   #16927
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Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
Yes they would care.

1) Regs are a very necessary part of the ecosystem in a room. Without them games don't go at off peak times and less games go all the time. Regs are defacto props.
Regs are pros (assuming winning players) are not the same.

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2) the mere presence of additional players (the regs) increases the rake. It's easy to see if you consider a time game. If 30% of the room stopped playing the room rakes 30% less time collection. it's less direct but in raked games less regs means less games or short handed games which create less pots that reach the rake cap.

So to say the casino doesn't care about the regs/grinders as a collective is not or at least should not be correct.

However the regs/grinders need fish to sustain them and the fish come to the poker room for poker so long as the room can be counted on to have games running. So the winning regs need the poker room too. somewhere exists some sort of equilibrium between maximized rake and player rake tolerance beyond which, purely from a market standpoint, the reg would become incentivized to quit or go elsewhere. Surely if rake was increased to 100% for example.

But beyond market forces there are gaming regulations which at least in my area make rake increases difficult and certainly ensure rake remains less than what would likely threaten that equilibrium.
It would be in casino's best interest to create illusion (both to losing players and regs) that some regs are winning players, because it would keep the players coming back.

However, there should be no incentive to have actual winning players, especially crushers in these games, because they are competitor of sort, removing money from player pool and consequently remove customers from casino.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:09 PM   #16928
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Ya, but how is anyone lucky? It's like all of us are lucky because we didn't die of horrific car accident.
Because we are lucky we didn't die in a horrific car accident.

That's a more hyperbolic statement, but it would be very reasonable to state that we're lucky to live in first world countries, to be healthy, to not be wondering where our next meal comes from or if we'll even make it that long. More than 50% of the worlds population lives in poverty, so we basically won a pretty ****ing massive coinflip from birth.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:11 PM   #16929
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Like I said, I understood the glass half full sentiment, but I would not describe the situation lucky just because we pay less rake.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:33 PM   #16930
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so we basically won a pretty ****ing massive coinflip from birth.
That's when I used my "one time".

Gfirstwordsinwomb,wasalsowearingdoucheysunglassesa ndearphonesG
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Old 11-22-2016, 04:01 PM   #16931
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Like I said, I understood the glass half full sentiment, but I would not describe the situation lucky just because we pay less rake.
You're arguing that it's a matter of perspective, I'm arguing that we are objectively luckily, regardless of how you choose to view it.
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Old 11-22-2016, 05:39 PM   #16932
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Ok.
This particular conversation should likely stop here.
Getting too close to the back and forth that we used to see.
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:31 AM   #16933
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As a customer, I want more players to play higher stakes so that game still remains an option. I know how to beat short-stacked 50BB 1-2 games and I can honestly tell you I would rather work at WalMart then play in that game.
You are not a Customer to the casino. When you are a winning player, you become a business partner with them. You don't even pay the rake, the fish that they bring to you pay the rake.

While I understand that we would love to have players buy in for more money and pay higher loss rates to us poker entertainers, the market tends to drive that.

It's like if we are performers, sure we would love to fill the venue with only $500 ticket sales, but the reality is we will have to have a varied ticket pricing in order to fill the venue.

I do disagree with you that players come to play to win money. A lot of players come play for a lot of different reasons, and you are projecting your reasons onto those players. Some come to socialize, to gamble, to play a game and winning money is just an after thought. Think of ALL the players who go to a casino to play SLOTS, sure they all would LIKE to win money long term or even in the short term, but it isn't a necessity

I think overall pro players tend to get really good at playing cards, but not at analyzing the different customers that come and pay them their salary
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:33 AM   #16934
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You are not a Customer to the casino. When you are a winning player, you become a business partner with them. You don't even pay the rake, the fish that they bring to you pay the rake.

While I understand that we would love to have players buy in for more money and pay higher loss rates to us poker entertainers, the market tends to drive that.

It's like if we are performers, sure we would love to fill the venue with only $500 ticket sales, but the reality is we will have to have a varied ticket pricing in order to fill the venue.

I do disagree with you that players come to play to win money. A lot of players come play for a lot of different reasons, and you are projecting your reasons onto those players. Some come to socialize, to gamble, to play a game and winning money is just an after thought. Think of ALL the players who go to a casino to play SLOTS, sure they all would LIKE to win money long term or even in the short term, but it isn't a necessity

I think overall pro players tend to get really good at playing cards, but not at analyzing the different customers that come and pay them their salary
I agree with you that I was projecting my own reasons for playing on to other players. I figured that winning $ could be the only motivation someone would have to even bother playing this game since it becomes such a grind and losing sessions are so tilting. But, I wasn't factoring in all of the recreational players who are playing mainly to get that big adrenaline rush from gambling. Certainly, these players aren't concerned about the rake nor do they care about +EV decisions.

What I can't really empathize with is how in the world losing money could be fun for our customers? Perhaps it's the selective memory of only remembering a rare winning session, or the big pots won, while conveniently forgetting about getting stacked and going home broke.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 11-23-2016 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:37 AM   #16935
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Originally Posted by ohmyrage View Post
You are not a Customer to the casino. When you are a winning player, you become a business partner with them. You don't even pay the rake, the fish that they bring to you pay the rake.

While I understand that we would love to have players buy in for more money and pay higher loss rates to us poker entertainers, the market tends to drive that.

It's like if we are performers, sure we would love to fill the venue with only $500 ticket sales, but the reality is we will have to have a varied ticket pricing in order to fill the venue.

I do disagree with you that players come to play to win money. A lot of players come play for a lot of different reasons, and you are projecting your reasons onto those players. Some come to socialize, to gamble, to play a game and winning money is just an after thought. Think of ALL the players who go to a casino to play SLOTS, sure they all would LIKE to win money long term or even in the short term, but it isn't a necessity

I think overall pro players tend to get really good at playing cards, but not at analyzing the different customers that come and pay them their salary

Couldn't disagree more. Saying winning money is an afterthought is accurate for maybe .02% of people in the poker room. The majority of people in a poker room are there because they think they are better than the guy sitting next to them and believe that advantage translates to money. Slots is a bad comparison because it doesn't reflect human nature the same way poker does which I think has a huge impact on a players incentive to play each game.

The whole "customer" concept of recs in a poker room might have been more accurate years ago but nowadays I just dont see it, at least in the rooms I have played in. The whole "customer" concept is what makes regs go out of their way to do the cringiest, most patronizing things to recs that are hard to watch and more importantly hurt the game because recs see right through it.

The sooner people stop referring to recs as customers and treating them as if they need to be entertained with the most insincere behavior the better off everyone will be. Being competitive, genuine, and friendly is what matters most.
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:37 PM   #16936
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Hey guys,

I am a new member at 2+2 and I just need some advice. In 2014 I started playing live NLHE in Alberta, Canada. I build my bankroll from 2k to 65k in one year, and lost it all playing Baccarat (like an idiot, I know). At that point I didn't have a job and was playing pro so I ended up moving to Los Angeles. I got a job in May 2015, and began playing low stakes 1/2 NLHE at a local casino to try to get back in the groove. After building my bankroll to 10k I took a shot at 500-1500 NLHE at Commerce Casino and blew my entire bankroll in about 4 sessions. Feeling defeated, I decided to stop playing entirely. I've lost a significant amount of money since May 2016 trying to rebuild my bankroll and I think it's because I am still chasing past losses. How much should I save before taking another stab? Any bankroll management tips? Ways to refrain from degeneracy?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:02 PM   #16937
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@7weeks2days

You seem to be unable to objectively view situations from perspectives that are not your own. I understand why you can't seem to fathom why others would not care about money as you aren't rich (and nor am I). To those who are, money is not a factor in many of the decisions they make.

I won't continue on this conversation though because it's getting into derail zone
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:08 PM   #16938
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Originally Posted by theworst View Post
Hey guys,

I am a new member at 2+2 and I just need some advice. In 2014 I started playing live NLHE in Alberta, Canada. I build my bankroll from 2k to 65k in one year, and lost it all playing Baccarat (like an idiot, I know). At that point I didn't have a job and was playing pro so I ended up moving to Los Angeles. I got a job in May 2015, and began playing low stakes 1/2 NLHE at a local casino to try to get back in the groove. After building my bankroll to 10k I took a shot at 500-1500 NLHE at Commerce Casino and blew my entire bankroll in about 4 sessions. Feeling defeated, I decided to stop playing entirely. I've lost a significant amount of money since May 2016 trying to rebuild my bankroll and I think it's because I am still chasing past losses. How much should I save before taking another stab? Any bankroll management tips? Ways to refrain from degeneracy?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.
Based on your past degeneracy / taking shots at too high of limits with too lol BR / etc., you should probably simply do you best to stay away from casinos altogether and never play poker again.

Gyouasked,you'rewelcome,goodluckG
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:26 PM   #16939
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Originally Posted by theworst View Post
Hey guys,

I am a new member at 2+2 and I just need some advice. In 2014 I started playing live NLHE in Alberta, Canada. I build my bankroll from 2k to 65k in one year, and lost it all playing Baccarat (like an idiot, I know). At that point I didn't have a job and was playing pro so I ended up moving to Los Angeles. I got a job in May 2015, and began playing low stakes 1/2 NLHE at a local casino to try to get back in the groove. After building my bankroll to 10k I took a shot at 500-1500 NLHE at Commerce Casino and blew my entire bankroll in about 4 sessions. Feeling defeated, I decided to stop playing entirely. I've lost a significant amount of money since May 2016 trying to rebuild my bankroll and I think it's because I am still chasing past losses. How much should I save before taking another stab? Any bankroll management tips? Ways to refrain from degeneracy?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.
ultimately, it sounds like you know what you're doing wrong - pit games and playing WAY higher than your BR - so really it's just on you to figure out how to not do those things. there is no secret. there is not magic tips. you just need self control.

as far as BR before starting again, if you have a job, you could probably start playing 1/2 when you have a spare BI around. if you lose it, wait until you save up another. if you're good eventually you will win a few sessions in a row and you should be able to go from there. once you start winning and are still working, if you can supplement you BR with job earnings, that would help too. just obv make sure you save enough to live off of
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:40 PM   #16940
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Thanks for the tips, @johnny_on_the_spot I'm so happy I joined the forum! Just need some support.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:45 PM   #16941
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Based on your past degeneracy / taking shots at too high of limits with too lol BR / etc., you should probably simply do you best to stay away from casinos altogether and never play poker again.

Gyouasked,you'rewelcome,goodluckG
I love action, I won't deny that. But I just need to train myself to have discipline I think. I am going to start to bring a third party friend as an observer to help me keep in check, and leave when I should. Just to gain a little bit of control before I go out on my own again.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:50 PM   #16942
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Leopard / spots, imo, but good luck.

Gwouldn'trecommendarecoveringalcoholichangoutatthe barG
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:54 PM   #16943
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I agree with GG for once.

If you're actually so bad that you need another person to babysit you in the casino, you need to move on to other things in life. You're going to inevitably end up broke and miserable more than likely. Stay away from the degen life
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:08 PM   #16944
Richard Parker
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Sounds like disaster waiting to happen...

Plus if spotter is a friend, you might put that friendship in jeopardy when you go on losing tilt.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:00 PM   #16945
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Couldn't disagree more. Saying winning money is an afterthought is accurate for maybe .02% of people in the poker room. The majority of people in a poker room are there because they think they are better than the guy sitting next to them and believe that advantage translates to money. Slots is a bad comparison because it doesn't reflect human nature the same way poker does which I think has a huge impact on a players incentive to play each game.

The whole "customer" concept of recs in a poker room might have been more accurate years ago but nowadays I just dont see it, at least in the rooms I have played in. The whole "customer" concept is what makes regs go out of their way to do the cringiest, most patronizing things to recs that are hard to watch and more importantly hurt the game because recs see right through it.

The sooner people stop referring to recs as customers and treating them as if they need to be entertained with the most insincere behavior the better off everyone will be. Being competitive, genuine, and friendly is what matters most.
I'm a serious rec player who plays deep stack 1/2 (plays more like 2/5) once or twice a week. I obviously want to win but the money isn't really material to me one way or the other. I play to have a good time. If I wanted to make money I'd work. If you think that most of the people you play with are there to actually make money, you don't really understand their motivations.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:54 PM   #16946
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Originally Posted by theworst View Post
I am a new member at 2+2 and I just need some advice. In 2014 I started playing live NLHE in Alberta, Canada. I build my bankroll from 2k to 65k in one year, and lost it all playing Baccarat (like an idiot, I know). At that point I didn't have a job and was playing pro so I ended up moving to Los Angeles. I got a job in May 2015, and began playing low stakes 1/2 NLHE at a local casino to try to get back in the groove. After building my bankroll to 10k I took a shot at 500-1500 NLHE at Commerce Casino and blew my entire bankroll in about 4 sessions. Feeling defeated, I decided to stop playing entirely. I've lost a significant amount of money since May 2016 trying to rebuild my bankroll and I think it's because I am still chasing past losses. How much should I save before taking another stab? Any bankroll management tips? Ways to refrain from degeneracy?
My honest advice follows, I think there is no chance you will follow this but maybe you'll think about it when you hit rock bottom:

You have a nasty gambling addiction and should seek help for that problem. Going pro is the last thing you should do, it's about as smart as an alcoholic getting a job bartending. Get a real job instead.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:56 PM   #16947
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Couldn't disagree more. Saying winning money is an afterthought is accurate for maybe .02% of people in the poker room. The majority of people in a poker room are there because they think they are better than the guy sitting next to them and believe that advantage translates to money.
I'd say at least half the people at the table act as though they think exactly this. But some people, who I suspect are a minority but not 1 in 5000, clearly don't care and just like splashing around.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:59 PM   #16948
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Lots and lots of higher stake players would play lower stake without winning as main motivation.
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Old 11-24-2016, 12:06 AM   #16949
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You're arguing that it's a matter of perspective, I'm arguing that we are objectively luckily, regardless of how you choose to view it.
You have to create a baseline in order to objectively determine luck. For instance, I would much sooner agree with the statement "we are unlucky for living in a society where poker is available in casinos that will rake you, with little exception", than I would with the statement, "we are lucky to be getting raked as we are". This is especially true because the results of significantly increasing the rake are unknown. Does anyone think the casinos haven't considered increasing the rake or replacing the poker room with slot machines before?
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Old 11-24-2016, 04:34 AM   #16950
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Welp, it isn't on a note that I'd like, but I've reached 1,000 hours of poker.

I've been faltering a bit lately, letting a slow run of cards affect my play. Time to refocus and finish the year strong.

It's mostly 1/3 at a single 8 table room in the midwest. There is a bit of 1/2 (vegas, local charity room), one random session of 2/5 and about 6 hours of plo.


I've played 954 hours at my home (local) room averaging just over 10 BB/hr.










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