Well, I'm sorry you view poker in such a regard and are thus miserable, but I benefit greatly from the social aspect of poker. I genuinely have an amazing time laughing, joking around, and talking about various subjects with many at the table. And with a smaller player pool, I'm fairly good friends with a lot of them and have a genuine interest when they talk about whats going on in their lives.

Believe it or not, many people can easily afford to lose 30-50k/year happily for the sake of always having a social/fun environment.

This is getting fairly close to derail so I won't go too much into it, but I'll loosly tie it into w/r by stating that if everybody were to approach poker like you did, the game would become increasingly miserable for basically everybody (as opposed to only half of everybody) and live poker would die out (thus crippling w/r obv)

Another point is the hidden EV of people actually liking you. They give you way more action, will hold your seat, invite you to games, and most importantly they'll play shorthanded (or headsup) with you.

And if my full-time job is so miserable that I am only there for sole purpose of making money, then I really should find a new job.

That too.

I'm very confident I could be working towards a career that will net me much more $$$ lifetime, but I don't think I'd be as "net happy" with more money/less enjoyment than I would be with poker that might be less money but more enjoyment/freedom

For someone playing full time I think money should be the number one goal. When I say that I mean not to lose sight of why I am there. My biggest problem is that I get too involved and try to have a meaningful conversation with people and the fallout that occurs from that.I'm not saying don't be social but to expect to gain from the social aspect of the poker room is setting yourself up for disappointment and distraction the majority of the time and for me this is a weakness. For example, some people may seem like great people only later for them to angle you or be tremendously scummy later on. This happens on a regular basis for me. The more I realize not to give people the benefit of the doubt in the poker room the better off I feel I am.

I'm guessing enjoying one's job is a relatively recent (in terms of human history) consideration, and even now a lot of people (most?) aren't fortunate enough to have that as too high a priority. Course, depends how far the pointer is on the miserable to tolerable scale.

GsometimesyoujustgottadowhatyougottadoG

RP, when someone mentioned dealing with the energy suck you replied you can because you and other winners who tolerate it make tons of money.

Think about it this way, I lose about 35% of sessions every year. In my more active days, that's easily 100 sessions a year that I walked away a loser.

How do you think I deal with the environment in those 100 sessions?

I agree and I wouldn't say I'm miserable. I'm very social and consider myself to be pretty likeable even though that doesn't mean much. I understand that the social aspect is important but money is number one. I am one of the few people in the room that is social and friendly whether I am crushing or getting crushed and I cannot say the same for 99% of the people I have ever encountered in a poker room. Saying that many people can afford to drop 30-50k in a poker room is a pretty gross over statement. The majority of players in a player pool probably can't afford to be playing in the first place. For me it's the social expectation of thinking the majority of the "connections" you have with people have any substance because the majority don't. For me at first, thinking they were genuine was and is a weakness. Now I know better and believe I am better because of it.

I agree with 7weeks2days completely. Anyone who is a professional poker player HAS to look at it as a business, remain completely objective about spots and hands, and remain focused for very long sessions. If that means isolating yourself in a hoodie and headphones from the rest of the table, so be it.

Besides, maybe 1% of the people who play poker in casinos have anything to say worth listening to. I have no idea how any pro could "enjoy" listening to and talking with and joking around with the degenerates at a poker room. Most are incredibly dumb and uninteresting if you ask me.

Yeah, you can go to work and just focus on the money but this doesn't have to make you miserable. Plenty of people work jobs for the sole purpose of money. And it's also possible to have "fun" at the poker table without conversing with the degenerates. Winning a big pot, knowing you got max value, making a solid fold - all these things can be enjoyable feelings.

If you're a poker pro who is depressed or miserable, it's probably to do with what goes on away from the table/work.

Thanks for the love but I do think hooding up and not being active socially in most games is a huge mistake as others have said. I just wanted to point out emotionally that trying to make any types of meaningful connections in a poker room is only going to make things more difficult 99% of the time. This was a weakness for me because I enjoy talking to other people but often times it just creates a bad situation because I would end up giving them the benefit of the doubt further down the line in a spot where it appears that they are trying to angle me in one way or another. Also, getting wrapped up in having meaningful conversations is not good in that it takes some degree of focus away from following the action.

If I had a dollar for every person I had a meaningful conversation with who's name I remembered but didn't remember me I would have a bunch of dollars. Not only that, but to take it a step further, if I had a dollar for every person who came off as nice but ended up being angling scum, I would have a boatload of $ as well. I understand that being social is important for your bottom line but to me it is more than that. I was trying to make a point about the poker environment as being the toxic emotional mind fug that it often can be. The fact that being social increases your bottom line is not the point. My problem that I tried to explain was that I thought that I could avoid falling into that toxic emotional trap by being genuine but so far I think that is a mistake because that can impact your bottom line in the worst way not just in terms of dollars but more importantly emotionally. I don't think its a coincidence that I put in a ton of volume the first couple months regardless of how I ran and as time passed I put in less and less. Now I think I have a better mindset where I can put in the volume and not let the toxic environment impact my emotional well being regardless of $ because I know what line not to cross on a social level most of the time.

I will continue being social on a shallow sh*t shooting level but I think its important to not take it too far and to keep in mind why you are in the casino in the first place. Do i think every player will have the same issue as me? No, but I do think it was an important mental gap for me to overcome especially at this point.

+1. I think this is a much better post than your initial one.

Yeah I basically just ramble a lot most of the time but every once in a while I articulate my thoughts in a way that it isn't confusing nonsense.

My 2 cents;

Very much doubt it is possible to last in this game year after year after year if you feel this way. Maybe if poker is just a part time hobby that generates a bit of extra cash. But if someone wants to do this full-time and feels this way, it would make for a miserable life.

I find most people incredibly interesting, even dumb degenerates. Actually degens even more so. Always amazes me to learn how they think.

Reminds me of a saying I've heard in the motorcycle world. An idiot behind you is dangerous. An idiot in front of you is entertainment.

To me the ones you like least are entertainment.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

The goal of a pro should be to entertain the fish. Make sure they have an enjoyable experience even when they are losing. Talk with them. Make connections. Build rapport. most people come to a casino to "escape." So take off your hoodies. Unplug your headphones. Stop berating the "regular degens." Make sure they recs and regs have fun and keep coming back so that, us pros, can continue making a living and getting our rent/mortgage paid.

If you have to make an effort to do a lot of things such as entertaining people and making connections, then chances are you would probably appear to be standoffish or even worse when you go through downswings.

As a rec player, you can simply choose to only play when you are in a positive mood, but as a pro, you don't have that choice.

FWIW, I believe that you should just try be yourself and do things without forcing them.

Just my 2 cents. I have had a lot of experience dealing with different people in poker rooms.

I see this sentiment expressed again and again in these forums and I don't like the way it's expressed for the following reasons:

1. It implies that you view other people as tools to be used and not as ends in themselves.

2. It implies that when you are being social, you are really faking it because you have an ulterior motive.

At the most basic level you want to be polite and sociable towards other people not because it's good for your bottom line- although it probably is- but because you want to be a decent human being.

To this, there are objections. "People are stupid and uninteresting". "People at the casino are deceptive". "I need to protect myself".

The first thing I would point out is that the above statements are limiting beliefs of the same nature as the ones bad players possess when they say stuff like "I never win with AA" or "I am never raising QQ because I lose when I do".

One problem with limiting beliefs is that that they are based on bad logic and generalizations from a small sample size. The other problem is that they are self-fullfining and you end up seeing what you wanted to see in the first place.

This is how I would amend the above statements: "Some people are stupid and uninteresting, but some are smart and very interesting. Even if they are stupid and uninteresting, they still deserve my respect until they disrespect me or do something bad".

Or "some people are deceiving, but also some people are honest and trustworthy. Until I figure which is which, I will refrain from giving them my full trust, while remaining open to getting to know them better."

But again, be careful of how you frame your interactions with other people. If you adopt the framing of fakery and dishonesty, you will also be very susceptible to developing a very cynical and negative view of the world. This is not a healthy mentality to have.

If you are playing poker for a living, these other players are your livelihood. Of course you have an ulterior motive and view them as tools to an end

There is a reason JRB is in the big game at Aria.

+1.

FWIW, everyone has their own way of rationalizing things. So if one way works for you, all the power to you.

I agree with this take on it. My personal life rule #2 is "Try not to be a dick", which extends to the poker table. It helps to be friendly with the other players, partly to keep them in the game and happy, partly to get yourself invited to home games (where the real action is), and also just because you're not a douchebag. Most people can detect when you're faking being nice to them and reject it.

A poker table is a unique cross-section of the population. You meet drug dealers, cops, used car salesmen, executives, construction workers, pro athletes, and everything else under the sun. And everyone's equal at the table. There are plently of interesting things to chat about if you want. In smaller player pools it's also a *great* social network of people you wouldn't otherwise know. From playing in my local game I've got connections to a mechanic that'll give me a break, a tow truck guy, a ticket guy that's always got football/hockey tickets to sell, a lawyer, and a diamond guy, among others.

This, I mean I'm not playing for a living but I'm trying to take their money and I'm serious about doing it.

I find this can actually mesh perfectly well with my natural approach of 'don't be an ass to people'.

So for example when a fish plays a hand terribly and stacks me, my natural inclination is to be pleasant (however unhappy I actually am), say 'nice hand' and agree with them when they explain they had to play it like that. At that same time of course I'm cynically aware that this is the optimal way to treat another player under these circumstances.

I mean as an NCAAB coach

I play poker in a casino ~50-60 hrs/week every single week and I rarely listen to headphones anymore.... I personally love the social environment of "my job" and have seriously met some of the most interesting people. One time I had a weed "grower" on my right, a police officer on my left, and the mayor of a small city all at the same table. Throw in a cpl old dudes and you got yourself some great convos let me tell you.

Sucks playing against mostly regs though to be honest, unless you are friends with them. Those are the games where I usually do listen to my headphones

This was in response to my remark that casinos should raise the minimum buy-in to 100BB's.

I see your point, but I think many would players would just bite the bullet and buy in for the max if that was the rule. If it is 1-2, that's only $200, which is only $100 more than the minimum. Same with 2-5. if your risk tolerance, or your bankroll, is so low that you are only going to buy in for $200 at a 2-5 game, why the f wouldn't you just play 1-2?


Additionally, I don't see any harm in creating a barrier for people that are too poor to be playing in the game. I don't know about you, but I didn't get into poker to take money from bums. I always enjoyed the strategy element of hand reading as well as gaining an edge in the risk/probability elements of the game that make it more than just pure "gambling".

Grant it, the degens are what make the games run at 1-2, but did anyone ever think that many white-collar professionals (regardless of race or gender) or the college-aged, high-testosterone males/ wannabe ballers that have cash don't like spending time in casinos that are catering to low end clientele? You rarely see young males 21-25 in the poker room, which means there is no new lifeblood of new people getting into poker. These guys probably saw poker on TV, thought it looked cool, only to show up to the casino and see a completely different demographic than what is presented on all of the televised broadcasts. These guys need to be sucked into the allure of walking away with big money, and winning monster pots. Its kind of hard to get that rush when you flop a set and get it in versus your short-stacked opponent of $37. Luckily, the games can still get very deep, but I have noticed a trend of smaller stack sizes throughout the casinos in the country. Usually, its only during the graveyard hours when the tables start breaking that the deeper stacks start to consolidate into 1-2 remaining tables and the real action begins.

If you are ever in Las Vegas during the WSOP, especially at the top poker rooms, pretty much everyone in the room is financially well off, which leads to monster stack sizes of 200-300 BB's and huge action, even at 1-3 at any time of the day. Every table is filled with players drinking booze, and there are probably 2 female players at every table (many of them being pretty damn attractive lol). The atmosphere is rowdy and the game is super fun. Not to mention your win rate noticeably skyrockets. Lots of whales willing to donate and have a good time.

Obviously, the casinos are not going to discourage the degen types from walking in the door because that means more tables for the poker room to open and more rake to be collected. But as a poker player, if it takes 5 hours of grinding down a 55 year old black lady with a $100 short stack that you have to split up 5 ways with the other abc-regs, if you think that is the high-life, then I think the future of poker is bleak. People need to put $ on the table, otherwise your edge as a poker player is pretty much nullified. Not to mention, at 25-30 hands an hour of slow live poker, your time is being severely wasted if you are willing to work only to make 8-10 bucks an hour playing a HIGH VARIANCE and emotionally draining card game, while also contributing nothing to society.

I would like to see a lot of the break-even to slightly winning nits step up to 2-5 but they will happily go along playing 50BB poker and making minimum wage rather than taking shots and playing poker the game it was meant to be played.

This is the biggest misconception. I think someone mentioned that if you have to intentionally try to do these things it becomes very obvious and is bad for the game. Makes me cringe every time I hear some dbag nitty reg attempt to befriend a mark. Nothing is more offensive than insincerity and people pick up on that very easily. The worst is when you hear these regs let out the worst and most obnoxious over the top fake laughs. Those are probably one of the most obnoxious things that come to mind when I encounter regs who attempt to do this. Most games would be better off if the majority of regs had head phones and stfu, because more often than not the insincere interaction is hard to watch and toxic for the game.

I also think that the recs who come to the casino to escape are few and far between. The majority of recreational players are there to win and think they are good. Patronizing them with false social interaction is just unnecessary at best.

As an extension to my point, these 30-50BB guys aren't "players" - they're people who bounce from slots to blackjack to baccarat to poker, etc, trying to find a "hot" seat. Raise the minimum to 100BB and they'll never sit at the poker table. Better for me to get their money than the house. Also remember that a lot of casinos have max buyins of 100BB.