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Old 10-22-2016, 11:45 PM   #16651
KatoKrazy
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Seems a pretty poor guess to me.
At 1/2 it is probably closer to 4-5 BB per hour in rake.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:54 PM   #16652
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Not sure where that quote comes from, but the average hand rakes about 2BB in LLSNL as far as I can tell, so there would need to only be 10 hands/hour for that to be accurate. 5-6BB/hour for rake seems more likely.
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Old 10-22-2016, 11:54 PM   #16653
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I'd guess even at 2/5 I pay closer to 8-9bb/hr in rake. But this is vs highest rake in the world.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:09 AM   #16654
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Yeah, lolstralya rake is absolutely ridic.

I USA #1, a cap over $5 (not counting BBJ and promo drop) is pretty rare, and one over $10 is unheard of at any licensed venue, afaik.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:56 AM   #16655
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Tables average about 100 an hour, maybe slightly more at 10% rake to 5 (per dealers/room managers). I'm used to same take for all games.

So 3bb/hr at 1/3 2bb/hr at 2/5 and 1bb/hr at 5/10. Dividing rake by 10 for full game, probably should be a bit higher for LAGs and for sitting all hands as much as possible at table


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Old 10-23-2016, 01:35 AM   #16656
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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Not sure where that quote comes from, but the average hand rakes about 2BB in LLSNL as far as I can tell, so there would need to only be 10 hands/hour for that to be accurate. 5-6BB/hour for rake seems more likely.


Yes.

At my casino, 10 handed table take averages 320-340 per hour at 2/5 and 280-300 at 2/3. Our rake is higher than most but we don't tip which evens it out slightly
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:17 PM   #16657
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Tables average about 100 an hour, maybe slightly more at 10% rake to 5 (per dealers/room managers). I'm used to same take for all games.

So 3bb/hr at 1/3 2bb/hr at 2/5 and 1bb/hr at 5/10. Dividing rake by 10 for full game, probably should be a bit higher for LAGs and for sitting all hands as much as possible at table
That table take seems low to me. I haven't studied it, but I'd estimate about $120/hour. I'll do the numbers below at $100-120 per hour.

Where's 1/2, the most common LLSNL game? Also, I was not including 5/10 as LLSNL. That's a mid-stakes game. Also, it's a time rake game at a lot of venues. Last, but not least, a lot of places have 9-person tables, vs. 10, so I'll divide by 9.5.

So by my numbers we're looking at an average rake cost of about 5-6bb/hr for 1/2, 3.5-4bb/hr for 1/3, and 2-2.5bb/hr for 2/5.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:35 PM   #16658
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At $10/$20 Bellagio the time rake is $7 per person per half hour, so $14/hr or $126/table each hour. Australia's rake is way higher than that but is still less than what you will find in many home games in the US.
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Old 10-23-2016, 05:17 PM   #16659
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During 3 days in August, I went to the casino with my tablet and I just tracked whatever I was paying for rake and tips at my 2/5 game. I wouldn't say that the tracking was perfect, but it was very close to being so.

My casino's rake 10% up to $5 +2 for jackpot. I did not track the jakepot drop separately as it would have been too tedious.

Over the course of 35 hours, I paid $420 in rake. This gives me $12 an hour for rake.

I never posted these results, because I don't if my sample size was good enough to draw solid conclusions and I don't know how the way I ran played a part in it. Fwiw, I ran tremendously hot during that time and made something like 7k during those hours in which I won a few big pots. Maybe if I was playing in a nittier game with many smaller pots, things would have been different.

So, if you can make more from this than I did, be my guest.

Beyond this, here's my take. I think I am averaging 30 hands per hour. I play around 25% of my hands. I would say on average 3 people see the flop - maybe a bit more than that, but less than 4. I don't know what percentage of those I am winning, but it can't be less than 33% and no more than 50%. Let's say 40%.

So 40% of 25% of 30 hands makes 3 wining hands an hour on average in which I pay rake. If we assume for the sake of simplicity that I pay full rake on each pot, it's either $15 per hour without the jackpot drop or $21 per hour with the jackpot. *

What am I missing?

* I just went back at the numbers I tracked and they show that over the course of 35 hours, I scooped 72 pots in which paid rake. This gives me an average of 2 pots per hour in which I paid rake.

Last edited by OvertlySexual; 10-23-2016 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:14 PM   #16660
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I don't know if it makes sense to assume you pay all the rake in pots you win and no rake otherwise. Reality is whenever you contribute chips to a pot that's raked, you paid some rake. A player how never wins a pot still provides profit to the casino via rake.

So it may be an easy way to estimate rake paid but surely not totally accurate?
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Old 10-23-2016, 07:28 PM   #16661
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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
I don't know if it makes sense to assume you pay all the rake in pots you win and no rake otherwise. Reality is whenever you contribute chips to a pot that's raked, you paid some rake. A player how never wins a pot still provides profit to the casino via rake.

So it may be an easy way to estimate rake paid but surely not totally accurate?
From my perspective, whether the pots I lost are raked or not doesn't make a difference. It's lost money to me either way.

Moreover, it makes sense to calculate rake by looking at your pots won, because the number and the size of the pots you win make a difference in the way the rake costs you as a proportion of your winnings or losses. I.e. a fish which plays 60% of his hands might be winning 20-25% of them which means they pay for 4 pots per hour which equals $20 of rake per hour.

Moreover, I just came up with the new way of looking at this. I know that in my local casino, the 5/10 game is time raked at $14 per hour. That's 1.5 BB per hour for each player.

However, from the point of view of the casino, each table has the same operating cost regardless of its stakes. i.e a 1/2 table has absolutely the same cost as a 5/10 table. So, if I were a casino operator, it would make sense for me to shoot for making the same money out of each table, perhaps trying to make a bit more where I can get away with it like the 5/10 game where the rake is such a low percentage of the money played.

So the $14 each players pays at the 5/10 tables is probably a very strong hint at how much each player pays on average at a 1/2 or a 2/5 table.

So assuming that a 2/5 and 1/2 player also pay around $14 an hour -probably even less- isn't a bad way of looking at it IMO. This also makes sense in explaining why the rake is such a burden in 1/2 as it's probably 5-7BB per hour whereas in 2/5 it's 2-2.5BB per hour.
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Old 10-23-2016, 09:22 PM   #16662
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Think you could use this information ^ to work out a 2/5 rake per hour at 10% capped at $15?
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Old 10-24-2016, 02:34 AM   #16663
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guys itt were saying there isn't a market/ not feasible. it clearly is. think texas is starting to use rake free clubs?
I wish I shared you optimism about this. They have been slow to spread in TX most likely because their legality is quite hazy. The first one to openly advertise itself as a legal poker room opened in Austin a year and a half ago. I heard there is one in Houston too. The problem is if they were to start popping up all over Texas that's when the out-of-state casinos would put the squeeze on and get them shut down.

If they were legal I would hope they would thrive rather than homegames that rake $20+ and skim off the top. That being said, the fish love to be wined and dined as they are in the home games.
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Old 10-24-2016, 05:17 AM   #16664
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derail deserves its own thread imo
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Old 10-24-2016, 06:13 AM   #16665
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Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
From my perspective, whether the pots I lost are raked or not doesn't make a difference. It's lost money to me either way.

Moreover, it makes sense to calculate rake by looking at your pots won, because the number and the size of the pots you win make a difference in the way the rake costs you as a proportion of your winnings or losses. I.e. a fish which plays 60% of his hands might be winning 20-25% of them which means they pay for 4 pots per hour which equals $20 of rake per hour.
That's true but what about this:

You're in a tight slow game and have a bad run where you lose four mid sized pots to other regs where rake comes out to just under the cap. The winners of those hands then exchange similar mid sized pots with other regs while you sit card dead.

You keep topping up to table maximum but no one else does. After 5 hours you finally get in a big pot with another reg and stack him. Trouble is he's not covering you because of all the back and forth mid sized pots bleeding chips to the rake.

So you win a big pot but it isn't as big as it would have been if V topped up or fewer back and forth mid sized pots had occurred earlier in the session. Some of those chips that left the table earlier and weren't replaced were your chips in the pots you lost earlier and fractions of the blinds you placed and lost whilr card dead. Therefore, in a very real way you paid rake on lost pots.

You don't notice it in a good game because plenty of fishy recs are sitting down, busting, reloading and being replaced by more of the same. NEVERTHELESS, the same thing is still happening.

You'll notice it immediately if you play headsup against someone who doesn't top up though.
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Old 10-24-2016, 06:37 AM   #16666
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This is a bad example ragequit, thats a very specific circumstance to where rake is effecting us if we are not winning the pots -- normally OS is correct in that rake unpaid by us should not have a (significant enough) dent in our WR
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:02 AM   #16667
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I guess it happens more than you think given llsnl players' tendency to let their stacks dwindle rather than top up regularly. To be honest I don't know how regularly it has an impact but money taken off the table whether it is in pots you win or pots you lose is money you can't win later so it must be having an effect across all hands, including ones you aren't even involved in I guess???
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:58 AM   #16668
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ragequit: that example is fine when talking about what the rake costs us, but Overtly is talking purely about money taken off the table in pots he won by the rake, and trying to distribute that across all players. Your example would be pretty much impossible to quantify, and also doesn't really add to finding out exactly how much money is taken off a table by the rake.


Calculating rake based off of how much you pay when you win the pot is obviously correct. If you ran hot over the sample then chances are you won a lot of pots after seeing the flop and paid a lot more rake than you normally would have.

Also 40% WWSF seems high if it's regularly going 3+ to the flop, but it's certainly possible.

Sample size is small, but doesn't really matter it's probably close enough. I'd say tracking rake is a pretty unnecessary thing to do and if you really want to track your rake there's better ways to do so... Overly does in the second half of his post.
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Old 10-24-2016, 12:57 PM   #16669
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Originally Posted by Finetome View Post
the fact stands- there is a huge market for this. these clubs aren't going away, and it's putting traditional brick and mortar poker rooms out of business. fwiw being no rake is actually a huge advertisment/ main selling point to poker players.
How long have these places been around? How do they cover their costs? Would be very interesting to see if they remain in existence in a couple of years, because on the surface (admittedly I know absolutely nothing about them) they don't seem sustainable.

I mean, of course we'd all love to play at rake free tables. But that seems like a long term pipe dream to me.

ETA: Somehow missed your next post. 6 years in existence? Honestly, longer than I would have guessed. But you also mentioned "membership fees"; how much are these? That can't be glossed over, and could easily be priced similarly to rake (although very beneficial to high volume players, but incredibly taxing to very casual players who rarely play, depending on how the membership fee is applied obviously). Also, "self dealt" games? Sometimes there is simply a price to pay for knowing the game is above board; not sure I would ever trust a self dealt game (and ditto goes for safety of premises).

Gletmeknowifyoufindanygolfcoursesthatdon'tchargegr eenfeesG

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Old 10-24-2016, 01:06 PM   #16670
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Seems like a huge discussion to me. Could be the future of poker.
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Old 10-24-2016, 05:01 PM   #16671
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Posts were removed because it's a big derail to the thread. Would be fine as its own thread.

I do find it ironic that you are now the champion of the Portland club scene, after railing against it in the Portland LCP thread back in 2013, but that's neither here nor there to win rates, bankroll, and finances. I would welcome a thread on rake free private poker clubs, and under what conditions they can/can't work, if you'd like to start one, but this is not that thread.
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Old 10-24-2016, 05:28 PM   #16672
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Posts removed.. why?

Gobbly- fees are 10-15$ per day. Popular places usually have 3+ tables. Full bar, solid menus, decent prices. I don't have a bug sample but I've never felt cheated in any of the club. It's low stakes, relaxed atmosphere poker.
Paying $10 - $15 per day (especially if you can pay them simply the days you show up) would definitely be awesome for players (compared to typical table rake). I'm just not convinced costs can be recovered offering that service for *so* cheap, but I guess time will tell.

ETA: In before G's derail comment, my bad.

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Old 10-24-2016, 07:25 PM   #16673
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Think you could use this information ^ to work out a 2/5 rake per hour at 10% capped at $15?
I don't think you re paying 3 times as high a rake as I calculated because not all pots reach $150. It's probably 2.5 times as much. I think you re paying 5-6BB per hour.

However, I do feel that with so much rake taken out of all the players that could also have an additional effect on how much you re winning as well.

Btw, do you have tipping in Australia? Because that could be around 1BB you re saving if you don't.
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:57 PM   #16674
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Actually, I didn't delete any posts at all, and didn't know that any mentioned me. I just saw the notes that another mod made, and had seen some of the posts before they got deleted, so I knew why the notes said "derail."

My assumption is that the other mod left enough of it to know what the discussion was about, without the constant back-and-forth.

As I said before, if you want to make a thread about this issue, feel free. If you want to PM APD and ask him to cut-and-paste the posts that were deleted into a new thread, feel free. Further posts about the issue ITT will be deleted and may be infracted, however.
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Old 10-24-2016, 11:35 PM   #16675
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Here's (almost) 1k hours since I started playing regularly again (almost) a year ago, 10/19/15. Dunno what to glean from it but at least I made 5 figs:







Sorry if this was covered earlier but couldn't find it earlier in the thread, what is the name of this app?

Looks pretty phenomenal for in game stat keeping, I have been just taking notes and inputing them to excel when I get home but this seems way easier and more functional. Thanks
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