Since I don't have a current PGC to ignore, here seems like a good place for April results to be ignored (I crushed April)

That seems crazy - can you explain?

In the land of the kangaroo, 100k at poker is equivalent to a 140ishk real job because we don't have to pay tax on poker income

I think you're a welcome addition to this thread, albeit there are other places such as pg&c places, where this pov is inappropriate

In the good old US and A the employer pays half the Medicare and Social Security tax and the employee pays the other half. If you are self employed, you get to pay all of it.

Employer also typically provides disability insurance, some life insurance, and covers a large portion of the very expensive health, dental, and vision insurance premiums.

Add in PTO, 401k match, Pension if you are lucky, presumably less risk, no variance, etc. and it becomes pretty darn close.

And that all equates to double the overall cost?

There's also risk associated with a full time job too though. An employer can just take it away from you in a way that can't happen if you're self employed


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He is dramatically understating the after tax spread between SE100k and EE50k. I'll present actual tax numbers tomorrow if you like when I am in the office.

Now the risk adjustment is obv harder to quantify

I would say somewhere between 50% and near 100% difference in overall cost, depending on how good the jobs benefits are.

But this tho

Might add that online poker isn't the only one that government has meddled with. In Michigan there's been a pretty hard fight to keep most poker rooms open due to pressure from IMO an overreaching gaming board. Granted it's low stakes, but I've made about 90% of my money precisely because I could drive down the road 5 miles and play at the bar instead of 45 min to the casino. I'm lucky to have so many options. Most people are lucky to find an underground game that could be raided at any time.

Quick question to the forum.

Roughly how many tracked hours of 1/2 are a good guideline for determining someone is a winning player? I'm not talking about getting an accurate winrate of $X/hr simply looking for guidelines on what some of your opinions are on when someone can honestly call themselves a "winning" player.

As for my own stats I've only just decided to take this game more seriously (first step...gave up tournaments to focus solely on cash) and have only logged 78 hours in the last couple months playing 1/2 with $300 max buy-in. Total profit for that period is just over $2,600 for a total bankroll currently of $3,260.

It's as though you've never lived in AMERICA#1! and partaken of Billy's foot long chili dog. Good to know literally everything in lolstrayla is upside down tho.

I'd be astounded if any company survives if their cost of employing an individual is double the cost of contractors/temps. Even 50% is probably pushing it. (My understanding is that total cost of an employee is, rule of thumb, 35-40% above nominal salary.)

Since I'm obviously drunk would be interested in our resident leprechaun's data tho.

my favourites were the meat ball sub and the cheesesteak with fried peppers

also, Billy paid cash and I never paid my tax. $5 an hour & free accomodation up top at the back of the restaurant. Plus all the free food you could pilfer

Was actually a little concerned the first time I returned to the US that I may get pinged for it but BOOM!!!

Where the **** is the "United States and America"???

Apparently you haven't seen Borat?

Once like 10 years ago

lol.

Also y u no bellybuster???

also, zj's at seacrets pays WAAAAAY more than $5/hour.

which one was the bellybuster?

Make $100k. Pay 25k in federal taxes. Another 10k in state taxes.

That's take home $65k. Also include that you need to have $20k set aside to be a pro, probably closer to $40k and it becomes a lot less attractive.

Just looking at federal income tax, this is correct.

However, that 140K real job comes with a bunch of ancillary benefits you don't get with poker, such as zero variance, paid leave, 9.5% superannuation and the option of just phoning it sometimes and still getting paid.

Not exactly sure how to quantify all those factors into dollar terms but 140K real job >>> 100K poker pro.

EDIT

9.5% super is $13,300.

6.5 weeks paid leave (public holidays + 20 days) = $17,500.

1 week paid sick leave = $2692

So that's $33,492 before we even touch variance. I'd put the value of the benefits at considerably exceeding the cost of income tax TBH.

my 140 was inc super, but w/e. and the tax burden on $140k gross income is 39kish iirc, but I agree with most of your post. think you're over on public holidays slightly - generally it's 9 per year of which only 8 are guaranteed (eg Anzac Day doesn't count if the day falls on a weekend) but of course those things are included. It's also, harder to get a mortgage/car loan etc if you aren't paying tax/proving income.

you've also missed the biggest $$ and life reason not to quit your job and turn pro too - if you have a real paying day job, you still get to enjoy poker as a profitable and enjoyable hobby at say, 10-15 hours a week, during the most profitable times and days. If we use the $50ph figure being thrown around = $25k tax free, on top of your $100k salary or w/e.

but the point remains - there's a huge disparity between the take home on a 100k poker win here and the US.

For a real life look,
I just got my 2015 benefits report, it looks like this:

Pension - 16611.94
401k match - 3313.26
Medical - 11297.4
Long term disability- 849.73
Life insurance - 634.8
EAP - 17.64
Employer paid SS- 7347.0
Employer paid medicare- 1956.44
Workers comp coverage - 473.56
Unemployment ins - 634.11
Total - 43139.88

My company includes my 4 weeks of vacation pay and sick pay in normal compensation. So those included brings me well over 50K.

To each his own, but the biggest problem with poker as sole income in the US is that if you claim it as income your gonna get killed on taxes and if you don't you miss out on the best cash flow generating investments out there like real estate due to having no credit/income. I use it as a profitable hobby to buy expensive dinners, take vacations, whatever.

Unless theyre giving me Those benefits in cash or weed they can keep em

I dont have to pay insurance til im 25 thx obama

I chuckeled when I read the word pension.

http://money.usnews.com/money/person...-to-retirement

I think that is a decent read for anyone under 30.

I'm not going to argue with your numbers, and part of the problem of this entire argument is comparing current sources of income which we have numbers for vs fictional numbers for ways that we do not earn income.

For comparison I have assumed 30 yo person, not married no dependents. Also assumed they do not itemize their deductions. I did not factor in state taxes since they have the option of playing in FL or NV with no state tax implications.

50k/year Employee pays:

FICA/Medicare: $3,825
Fed Tax: $5,725

So even if EVERY thing else is paid for their net take home is ~$40,450 (before accounting for benefits, etc.)

Now it is true that there are non-cash benefits to being employed. These often come in the form of the following (obv benefit packages vary widely):

Health Premiums $6,000 (assuming $500/month)
401k match $1,500 (I used 3% matching which seems pretty standard)
Various insurance (disability, life, etc) $1,500 (total guess using Roqufort's numbers)

Non Cash benefits $9,000

An employee also has some "Safety net" stuff that a poker player would never have...worker's comp, unemployment insurance, etc. These are generally though not always paid by the employer.


100k SE Poker player:

I have assumed they are able to expense ~10k in expenses for travel, mileage, parking, etc. so they are taxed on 90k.

Further I have assumed they pay $500/mo in health Insurance (deductible)

FICA/Medicare (SE Tax) ~$12,700
Fed Tax ~$12,600
Health Insurance $6,000

Total Costs $31,300

So their net after accounting for taxes and health premiums is ~$68,700 (100k less 31,300)

Note I did not account for the 10k in expenses because if we were to do so we would have to quantify an employee's expenses which would generally not be deductible (at least commuting and work parking).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cliffs

Employee Cash after tax comp ~$40,450
Employee non cash comp ~$9,000
Employee Safety net hard to quantify

Total Comp ~$49,450 say $50,000

Self Employed

Net after Tax Comp ~$68,700


These two numbers are not even close to the same thing. I do agree that there is a risk factor associated with being self employed but that is always true of being self employed and each person's risk tolerance for risk is different. To some it is not worth the additional $18-20k that would be realized in the described scenario. To others that could be cut in half and it would be plenty. Each person has to decide that themselves.