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Old 03-07-2016, 07:49 PM   #13976
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Flopp3dIt View Post
It just comes down to how you value things in life?

I've actually been stumped at a crossroads for a month or so now since finding myself a job.

The marginal utility of every extra dollar diminishes as you earn more, $50 isn't as important to you when you're making $1000/week or whatever working but it is very important when you're grinding it out with no stable income.

Making money is always good, but there is always some sort of opportunity cost, let it be time, missed life opportunities, health, ect etc.

There should be a time for some when grinding it out for 10bb/hour is just not worth it anymore because time becomes more valuable or health etc etc.

For example, if I had children and was working a good job, I don't think I could justify grinding it out on my butt for 10bb/hour because my job would be paying 20-30bb/hour
AND MOVING UP isn't an option because the winnings/(studying+game time) isn't equal to your hourly at work.

It's like the question;
Would you rather 1m or a 50% shot at 2m, theoretically they both are equal in EV, but 1m would change people's lives and the gambol isn't just not worth it because the extra 1m to be gained isn't sufficient enough to risk it. The relative value of the second million dollars is actually less than the first million.

this seems to be a mindset issue - don't you enjoy poker as well, both the playing and also the thinking?

I certainly do - I look forward to it, I think about it, read about it and write notes etcc and occasionally dream about it. Doing poker just for the money would scare the crap out of me, because it would become a grind that I resented instead of relished. Of course, the money I win is also cool and I'm not sure I would play it longer term if I didn't win money/was a long term loser but winning money is only one part of the equation/value proposition
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Old 03-07-2016, 07:57 PM   #13977
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Lol.

One team I'm on plays on a rink designed for sled hockey (no lips on the benches entering the ice surface, seats far back from the semi-transparent boards, etc.). They're often playing before our game, cripes it looks like a lotta work.

GnowbacktoyourregularlyscheduledprogrammingG
Went to a sledge hockey game during the paralympics. Only time in my life I'll ever get to sit behind the glass. Great action and almost as physical as the able-bodied version.

Love that there's a penalty for "T-Boning".
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:32 PM   #13978
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
this seems to be a mindset issue - don't you enjoy poker as well, both the playing and also the thinking?

I certainly do - I look forward to it, I think about it, read about it and write notes etcc and occasionally dream about it. Doing poker just for the money would scare the crap out of me, because it would become a grind that I resented instead of relished. Of course, the money I win is also cool and I'm not sure I would play it longer term if I didn't win money/was a long term loser but winning money is only one part of the equation/value proposition
This is almost my exact mentality. The thinking / fluid dynamics / situational play always being different is what keeps me loving this game. The money matters too, but mostly just as a scorecard.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:38 PM   #13979
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yup. Winning is what I like. Or the challenge to win. It's taken the place of sports for me. I play rec softball/soccer these days but I'm too competitive for that to be a perfect fix. I take every game I play seriously (not like douche bag beer league guy who thinks it's the finals) but I really want to win. Poker is a great outlet for me.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:47 PM   #13980
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Money has much better uses than buying crap. Sounds like you have a spending problem.
No, I don't. And I don't have a problem with spending money on stupid crap- but people generally do - that's why they constantly chase more money thinking it will fix things. We live a fairly minimalist lifestyle which makes us happy.

Past a certain point yes- it does mean being able to buy stuff people don't really need (or even want).

It will be interesting to see if my tune changes once this run bad finally ends, but I don't think my mindset will change.

Mike- lived / travelled all over the world on and off for 4-5 years. I've had my fill
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:57 PM   #13981
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
No, I don't. And I don't have a problem with spending money on stupid crap- but people generally do - that's why they constantly chase more money thinking it will fix things. We live a fairly minimalist lifestyle which makes us happy.

Past a certain point yes- it does mean being able to buy stuff people don't really need (or even want).

It will be interesting to see if my tune changes once this run bad finally ends, but I don't think my mindset will change.

Mike- lived / travelled all over the world on and off for 4-5 years. I've had my fill
Seems weird to assume that everyone else has a spending problem then.

It's pretty awesome to be able to retire a couple years early, or go on nice trips with your wife, or help your kids through college thanks to a hobby that you enjoy. Until you get into the multi millionaire range, more money is always very useful imo.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:03 PM   #13982
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Kind of a weird twist to be speaking from your point of view and then switching to what most people do in your opinion...
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:13 PM   #13983
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No assuming- there was a study in the us showing how many people over the age of 35? (If I recall correctly) that had any life savings. They found that number to be shockingly tiny.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:21 PM   #13984
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I am so confused now...
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:28 PM   #13985
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Might be this: http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/10/pf/emergency_fund/

The exact numbers change, but the same study conclusions come up all the time. It's a weird question to read as a poker player since 3-4 days a week I probably have $1k in my pocket.
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:10 PM   #13986
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
No assuming- there was a study in the us showing how many people over the age of 35? (If I recall correctly) that had any life savings. They found that number to be shockingly tiny.

Ya, so why wouldn't you try to make more money even if you and your SO have good paying jobs?
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:28 PM   #13987
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Without ability to quote, it can be kind of confusing.

Discussion started like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
I probably misunderstood. If both people in a relationship have great paying jobs then why would one want to play live low stakes for the money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Why not?

Money is still money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
If my SO and I both had awesome jobs then I wouldn't play poker with any regularity. I'd rather spend my time doing something else besides chasing more money to buy crap I don't really need.

But take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I'm burnt out. A few million hands of online poker + live will do that to a person. You see / experience some pretty crazy variance which, at the end of the day really isn't worth dealing with / the stress imo if a person makes good gains outside of poker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by t_roy View Post
Money has much better uses than buying crap. Sounds like you have a spending problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
No, I don't. And I don't have a problem with spending money on stupid crap- but people generally do - that's why they constantly chase more money thinking it will fix things. We live a fairly minimalist lifestyle which makes us happy.

Past a certain point yes- it does mean being able to buy stuff people don't really need (or even want).

It will be interesting to see if my tune changes once this run bad finally ends, but I don't think my mindset will change.

Mike- lived / travelled all over the world on and off for 4-5 years. I've had my fill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
No assuming- there was a study in the us showing how many people over the age of 35? (If I recall correctly) that had any life savings. They found that number to be shockingly tiny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Ya, so why wouldn't you try to make more money even if you and your SO have good paying jobs?
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:35 PM   #13988
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

The problem isn't that people don't make enough- it's that they just spend too much on overpriced products / things they don't actually need.

There's quite a few books and even some TED talks on the subject. It's pretty fascinating.

More or less they say people catch the consumerism bug and overspend on just about everything you can think of: Homes, food, cars, vacations, clothing, phones, hair cuts etc etc.

Keeping up with the joneses. They do it because they've been told to. An empty promise so to speak, they buy these overpriced things because they think it will make them happy but it ultimately stresses them out even more. It's a viscous cycle.

I'm not doing it any justice though. Check out the TED videos for starters.

/end derail
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:43 PM   #13989
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You totally lost me.

I thought the discussion was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
I probably misunderstood. If both people in a relationship have great paying jobs then why would one want to play live low stakes for the money?
How did we get to people buy things they don't need and TED videos?

You can have great paying jobs and play poker to make even more money WITHOUT buying things you don't need...

So you can save money and not be 35 and have no real savings...
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:00 AM   #13990
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
this seems to be a mindset issue - don't you enjoy poker as well, both the playing and also the thinking?



I certainly do - I look forward to it, I think about it, read about it and write notes etcc and occasionally dream about it. Doing poker just for the money would scare the crap out of me, because it would become a grind that I resented instead of relished. Of course, the money I win is also cool and I'm not sure I would play it longer term if I didn't win money/was a long term loser but winning money is only one part of the equation/value proposition

I play solely for money nowadays
I don't actually enjoy poker as much anymore, mainly because I had to rely on it as my only source of income for too long.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:51 AM   #13991
ibelieveyouoweme$80k
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Casino giving away money to players who play the most hours every week.

Do I count that in my win rate? Sure this has been discussed before. I mean, I have to play the hours to get the bonus. Not like a high hand or bad beat that is based on luck.

My gut says this counts and HH and BB do not.
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Old 03-08-2016, 09:56 AM   #13992
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ibelieveyouoweme$80k View Post
Casino giving away money to players who play the most hours every week.

Do I count that in my win rate? Sure this has been discussed before. I mean, I have to play the hours to get the bonus. Not like a high hand or bad beat that is based on luck.

My gut says this counts and HH and BB do not.
It's essentially rakeback. Online players count that I believe
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Old 03-08-2016, 10:34 AM   #13993
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I don't count it inly online winrate but I think I could probably set it up to do it.


I don't see why you can't keep two totals. One WR without to k ow how you're actually doing in the game itself and one with it to see how you're doing with your time commitment.
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Old 03-08-2016, 11:18 AM   #13994
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Does it really even matter?
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:10 PM   #13995
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Does it really even matter?
well I think we should prolly have everyone weigh in...and debate this issue for multiple pages as it is paramount in determining blah blah blah blah wall of text no i am smarter no u I was testing to see just how stoopid u are...etc etc
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:30 PM   #13996
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
Does it really even matter?
For rec players, the only reason to keep track of our winrate is to *try* to get a handle on how we stack up regarding our poker playing abilities. Sorta like keeping track of wins/losses/goals/points/GAA/etc. in a rec sports league.

So I definitely wouldn't include any bonuses / BBJs / etc. in my winrate calculation.

ETA: @Chippy, why do you keep track of your winrate? Is it partly to attempt to figure out your expected income in the future? If so, including random lottery-like winning (especially big once-in-a-lifetime ones like BBJs) will totally distort your future expectation.

Gotherwise,whocaresG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; 03-08-2016 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:37 PM   #13997
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
For rec players, the only reason to keep track of our winrate is to *try* to get a handle on how we stack up regarding our poker playing abilities. Sorta like keeping track of wins/losses/goals/points/GAA/etc. in a rec sports league.

So I definitely wouldn't include any bonuses / BBJs / etc. in my winrate calculation.

Gotherwise,whocaresG
right but if you are winning at say 5bb/hr without including it...now you add in this rakeback and you are winning 5.5bb/hr or w/e it works out to be. Who gives a ****?

It's all just mental masturbation
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:40 PM   #13998
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

that's the point. If your goal is to see how well you compete, then don't include it. If $/hr is your main goal then include.
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:49 PM   #13999
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
right but if you are winning at say 5bb/hr without including it...now you add in this rakeback and you are winning 5.5bb/hr or w/e it works out to be. Who gives a ****?

It's all just mental masturbation
Oh I see what you mean: the difference between ex. 5bb/hr and 5.5bb/hr is pretty much worthless? I get that. But sometimes the difference can be huge (ex. I'm either a 0.48 BB/hr winner at 2/4 Limit or a 6.26 BB/hr winner).

Ginthisthread,slimknocksmasturbationG
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Old 03-08-2016, 12:54 PM   #14000
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Super easy to use common sense here lol. Non-promo WR is for future expectation and WR w/ promo is for past results. If you want to tell yourself you make more in-game than you actually do, have at it. It's not like it's super difficult to calculate both and analyze the difference.
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