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Old 02-22-2016, 06:44 PM   #13551
MikeStarr
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I dont know about everywhere else, but in S.Florida there are 7 poker rooms that I know if within a 1 hour radius and they are all jam packed with players.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:04 PM   #13552
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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I dont know about everywhere else, but in S.Florida there are 7 poker rooms that I know if within a 1 hour radius and they are all jam packed with players.
I have no idea what stage the poker market is in there, but is traffic increasing or decreasing or staying the same (noting that "jam packed with players" doesn't describe the trending of traffic)?

As of a couple of years ago, our market also had 7 rooms all within a 1 hour radius. 1 of those rooms has since closed, another has just downsized (from 12 tables to 8 tables and now to 5 tables) and is on life support, and (to my knowledge) every other room has downsized (our room dropping from 8 to 5 tables, other rooms I *believe* doing similar).

Yesterday when I left our room at 9:30pm, it was "jam packed" as 4 of the 5 tables were running. But it was a deceiving "jam packed" (only a handful of players on the wait list), no clear must-be-at-table, and not even remotely close to how busy this room could be in the past.

Gcloudsdon'tmakeanoisewhentheyhitthegroundG
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:19 PM   #13553
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It shouldn't be any surprise that the worse the economy is the worse that will be for poker. LOL at anyone saying that the poker in Detroit MI is good. I was recently in the Cleveland/Toledo area and the games there were all short-stacked nightmares. I checked the Brovo app for MGM in Detroit and they only had 2 1-2 tables running during Super Bowl Sunday and my guess is the games were just as bad as northeast and northwest Ohio. Sure, the player pool is terrible, but what good is it when they don't have any money on the table and they still insist on tipping dealers $1 or $2 regardless of how small the pot is when they win (taking more of their money off of the table). Plus, ofcourse the rake is eating them alive, which they are oblivious too.

If you're a pro then you have to live at a big market place where there are thousands of fish in your player pool willing to lose 2-3k+ a year playing poker. If you live in a small market, there aren't that many players in the city that can realistically afford to lose that much, so they basically stop showing up. What's worse is, because everyone is poor, nobody is buying for 100BB's, which further reduces your edge as a semi/pro or professional player.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:34 PM   #13554
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It shouldn't be any surprise that the worse the economy is the worse that will be for poker. LOL at anyone saying that the poker in Detroit MI is good. I was recently in the Cleveland/Toledo area and the games there were all short-stacked nightmares. I checked the Brovo app for MGM in Detroit and they only had 2 1-2 tables running during Super Bowl Sunday and my guess is the games were just as bad as northeast and northwest Ohio. Sure, the player pool is terrible, but what good is it when they don't have any money on the table and they still insist on tipping dealers $1 or $2 regardless of how small the pot is when they win (taking more of their money off of the table). Plus, ofcourse the rake is eating them alive, which they are oblivious too.

If you're a pro then you have to live at a big market place where there are thousands of fish in your player pool willing to lose 2-3k+ a year playing poker. If you live in a small market, there aren't that many players in the city that can realistically afford to lose that much, so they basically stop showing up. What's worse is, because everyone is poor, nobody is buying for 100BB's, which further reduces your edge as a semi/pro or professional player.
I play in Cleveland and you're right. The number of short stacks is outrageous. If you don't aggressively table select here you're going to sink your win rate.

Last year before they changed from 1/2 to 1/3 I actually quit playing entirely because I considered the games "dried up." The change in stakes saved it (at least for now).
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:52 PM   #13555
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Yeah I play there too and thank lawd for the switch. It's a decent market now between lack of talent in the player pool and money on the table. 50-200 1/2 was just awful.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:01 PM   #13556
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Exactly. Populate a table with 9 shortstacking nits with upwards of $200 coming off the table in rake+ (not exactly an "impossible" scenario) and I doubt anyone is going to manage a crushing winrate.

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How many ppl have a crushing wr now? 4?
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:37 PM   #13557
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I have no idea what stage the poker market is in there, but is traffic increasing or decreasing or staying the same (noting that "jam packed with players" doesn't describe the trending of traffic)?

As of a couple of years ago, our market also had 7 rooms all within a 1 hour radius. 1 of those rooms has since closed, another has just downsized (from 12 tables to 8 tables and now to 5 tables) and is on life support, and (to my knowledge) every other room has downsized (our room dropping from 8 to 5 tables, other rooms I *believe* doing similar).

Yesterday when I left our room at 9:30pm, it was "jam packed" as 4 of the 5 tables were running. But it was a deceiving "jam packed" (only a handful of players on the wait list), no clear must-be-at-table, and not even remotely close to how busy this room could be in the past.

Gcloudsdon'tmakeanoisewhentheyhitthegroundG
I just recently moved here and have only started playing regularly since mid December so I cant say how much its changed, but Im talking about numerous poker rooms in the area with 10-40+ tables running.

When I left at about 6PM yesterday, there were at least 30 tables running where I play. I think 5 of them were $2/$5 NL. There's a hell of a lot of OMC here.
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:03 PM   #13558
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Keep in mind the poker boom coincided with the front side of an economic boom or bubble depending on your view. When people were flush with cash and using helocs like ATMs it was easy to drop a couple Buyins every week at the card room.

My observation is the worst of the "boomers" that fed lowstakes cash games and didn't learn to lose slower migrated to low buyin tournaments. With rebuys now it's largely unnecessary for them to play cash.
this is definitely true in Sydney, where there is only 1 casino for a city of 5m people. Even on a weekend night, we'd rarely have more than 25 tables open. Conversely around the city there would be at my estimate, an average of 50-60 tournaments going on per night at pubs and clubs with buy ins from $20-50 as part of bar poker leagues and the like - again, I'll guess an average of 40 players at each of them per night. Sometimes these tournaments have 'high roller' type events for $200 ish or regional/national qualifiers with major payouts for the ME

almost all new poker players learn poker at these clubs and most of them are very happy to stay there. almost all of these guys are losing players, but at $30 a pop, their weekly or twice weekly poker habit never costs them too much and is a social occasion as well. only the best or the more degen graduate from there to the casino cash games and tournaments - we'll often get 1k entrants for the $330 buy in opening events for big series.

the cash game exposure is generally occasional private, social home games amongst the friends from the clubs/pubs. this is how I started in poker 8-9 years ago and I graduated from there to online and then to the casino. Interestingly, even our once twice monthly cash game has dissolved to nothing, as over time it became apparent to the losing players that they were losers and they lost interest and began to focus solely on the pub poker for their fun and enjoyment.

so while poker could actually be said to be growing or still booming here, very little of the growth in new players ever make their way to the casino cash tables
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:11 PM   #13559
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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It shouldn't be any surprise that the worse the economy is the worse that will be for poker. LOL at anyone saying that the poker in Detroit MI is good. I was recently in the Cleveland/Toledo area and the games there were all short-stacked nightmares. I checked the Brovo app for MGM in Detroit and they only had 2 1-2 tables running during Super Bowl Sunday and my guess is the games were just as bad as northeast and northwest Ohio. Sure, the player pool is terrible, but what good is it when they don't have any money on the table and they still insist on tipping dealers $1 or $2 regardless of how small the pot is when they win (taking more of their money off of the table). Plus, ofcourse the rake is eating them alive, which they are oblivious too.

If you're a pro then you have to live at a big market place where there are thousands of fish in your player pool willing to lose 2-3k+ a year playing poker. If you live in a small market, there aren't that many players in the city that can realistically afford to lose that much, so they basically stop showing up. What's worse is, because everyone is poor, nobody is buying for 100BB's, which further reduces your edge as a semi/pro or professional player.
I've played in more than 30 rooms. Cleveland and Toledo would be right at the top of the list for worst 1-2 games due to short stacks (I was in Cleveland prior to switch to 1-3) motor city Casino seemed very good, but I was only there for one night.
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:14 PM   #13560
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No one has said anything about detroit being a poker mecca. Gotta go to LV, borg, cali, SF to catch the good action. It probably doesnt make too much sense to stay at one place anymore and grind, you do have to move in accordance to the tournament circuit or scope out good home games in order to thrive. Relying on one casino, even if it can regularly sustain 20+ tables will most likely lead to a meager subsistence, especially because ALL poker markets are slowly downtrending.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:21 AM   #13561
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Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
It shouldn't be any surprise that the worse the economy is the worse that will be for poker. LOL at anyone saying that the poker in Detroit MI is good. I was recently in the Cleveland/Toledo area and the games there were all short-stacked nightmares. I checked the Brovo app for MGM in Detroit and they only had 2 1-2 tables running during Super Bowl Sunday and my guess is the games were just as bad as northeast and northwest Ohio. Sure, the player pool is terrible, but what good is it when they don't have any money on the table and they still insist on tipping dealers $1 or $2 regardless of how small the pot is when they win (taking more of their money off of the table). Plus, ofcourse the rake is eating them alive, which they are oblivious too.

If you're a pro then you have to live at a big market place where there are thousands of fish in your player pool willing to lose 2-3k+ a year playing poker. If you live in a small market, there aren't that many players in the city that can realistically afford to lose that much, so they basically stop showing up. What's worse is, because everyone is poor, nobody is buying for 100BB's, which further reduces your edge as a semi/pro or professional player.
You don't know what you're talking about.

Motor City is the big poker room in town. It's packed all the time. But they don't have Bravo. MGM and Greektown are secondary at *best*. Then we have games in every town in local bars, so the player pool is rather dilute, but there's plenty of action.

The max buys at MGM and GT are both 150BB, Firekeepers is 200BB, and many of the charity rooms are 150BB. Rarely do I sit at a table filled with shortstacks, in any room. It happens occasionally, but there are more than enough big donators around to keep the games going well.

Or just go ahead and keep assuming instead.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:51 AM   #13562
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Southern Michigan is a candy store.
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Old 02-23-2016, 04:51 PM   #13563
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I apologize for my false assumption. Why was there such a big drop off in northern Ohio from southern Michigan? You couldn't even find a 2-5 game at Horseshoe Cleveland unless it was Friday and Sat. night and these games would break in a half hour of starting.

The 1-3 games were god-awful. Pukey buy-ins of $100 at every table.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:10 PM   #13564
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I apologize for my false assumption. Why was there such a big drop off in northern Ohio from southern Michigan? You couldn't even find a 2-5 game at Horseshoe Cleveland unless it was Friday and Sat. night and these games would break in a half hour of starting.

The 1-3 games were god-awful. Pukey buy-ins of $100 at every table.
Previous awful management really hurt the room. Management has since improved but it's still very flawed. They can't seem to hire anyone who understands what promotions are supposed to accomplish.

The crazy number of short stacks probably has more to do with the economy though.
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:17 PM   #13565
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I apologize for my false assumption. Why was there such a big drop off in northern Ohio from southern Michigan? You couldn't even find a 2-5 game at Horseshoe Cleveland unless it was Friday and Sat. night and these games would break in a half hour of starting.

The 1-3 games were god-awful. Pukey buy-ins of $100 at every table.
Well, first off Ohio sucks. Everything about it is awful. If I had to live there I'd probably blow my brains out.

Even with the economy in the ****ter there's still a lot of industry in SE MI, probably more than Cleveland. (It was glorious for a few months when the auto-workers were getting bought out and had $40k checks handed to them to quit, juicy as hell.)

We've also got a lot of Caldeans and Arabs that own small businesses and chain stores that ****ing LOVE to gamble. So there are feeders for a lot of the games.

The "charity rooms" are essentially home games on steroids. You've got pools of regulars that almost never go to the casino, but stop at the corner bar on their way home from work 4 nights a week and gamble and drink and hang out with their "poker friends". Then since they're 2 blocks from home they drink a *lot*.


I watched bad management kill a really juicy, consistent $2/5 game that switched to $5/10 most Fridays. Let the players get away with murder for a long time, then when management decided to put its foot down and enforce some things, the players bailed and the game died. It's really easy for a bad poker room manager to kill a game.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:16 PM   #13566
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I was having a little back and forth in another thread and was very surprised to hear from an experienced 2plus2 member that a sustained $25-$30/h win rate over a 500-1000 hour sample at 1/2 was next to impossible.

I'm sure the info is buried in here somewhere, but there must be some of you 1/2 veterans out there that have accumulated these stats. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:39 PM   #13567
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I was having a little back and forth in another thread and was very surprised to hear from an experienced 2plus2 member that a sustained $25-$30/h win rate over a 500-1000 hour sample at 1/2 was next to impossible.

I'm sure the info is buried in here somewhere, but there must be some of you 1/2 veterans out there that have accumulated these stats. Can anyone confirm?
I wouldn't say its impossible but I bet there's not more than 2% of 1/2 players who can do it.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:56 PM   #13568
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I wouldn't say its impossible but I bet there's not more than 2% of 1/2 players who can do it.
Do you think in part this is because ppl good enough to beat the game for this win rate move up before the 1000 hour mark typically? Or is it just that impossible to do?
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:57 PM   #13569
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I'm close. A few more hours and I think I'd hit it.

(really bad player pool though)
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:47 PM   #13570
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Originally Posted by StreetH View Post
I was having a little back and forth in another thread and was very surprised to hear from an experienced 2plus2 member that a sustained $25-$30/h win rate over a 500-1000 hour sample at 1/2 was next to impossible.

I'm sure the info is buried in here somewhere, but there must be some of you 1/2 veterans out there that have accumulated these stats. Can anyone confirm?
It's possible, but is it possible for YOU?
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:52 PM   #13571
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I don't know. Probably not. I'm close to 300 hours in and am not there and have run pretty well overall
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:54 PM   #13572
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What difference does it make if the answer is yes or no?
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:16 PM   #13573
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What difference does it make if the answer is yes or no?
I suppose it helps to set a realistic understanding about what's possible. If I'm 300 hours in, shy of the win rate and have self assessed to have run well, it seems like a pretty damn impossible to target to hit.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:50 PM   #13574
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WR is determined by bunch of factors:

-Size of pool
-Average BI
-Day of week
-Time of day
-Ability
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:23 PM   #13575
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Originally Posted by StreetH View Post
I was having a little back and forth in another thread and was very surprised to hear from an experienced 2plus2 member that a sustained $25-$30/h win rate over a 500-1000 hour sample at 1/2 was next to impossible.

I'm sure the info is buried in here somewhere, but there must be some of you 1/2 veterans out there that have accumulated these stats. Can anyone confirm?
It's definitely possible. I was at $36/hour over 400 hours or so before moving up to 2/5. I play in a room that is $300 max and ample table selection so the results probably don't apply to most markets.

I actually set a goal to beat 1/2 for $60/hour in 2016 but sadly I've only played two sessions this year.
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