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Old 02-12-2016, 09:40 PM   #13376
kookiemonster
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
I've only been in one spot where straddling utg made sense. I had a gambly maniac to my right and he was very likely to make a stack committing raise preflop which j could then shove over.
Had a similar spot recently. Hero is UTG. UTG+1 took a bad beat the previous hand and decides to blind shove for 150BB. Hero puts in a last second straddle. Folded to hero who calls with QJo. V doubles up.
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Old 02-12-2016, 10:27 PM   #13377
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Had a similar spot recently. Hero is UTG. UTG+1 took a bad beat the previous hand and decides to blind shove for 150BB. Hero puts in a last second straddle. Folded to hero who calls with QJo. V doubles up.
Huh? Why straddle? You get in the same effective position by just limping.
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Old 02-12-2016, 10:38 PM   #13378
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Huh? Why straddle? You get in the same effective position by just limping.
The correct question is "why weren't you to his immediate right?"

And straddle does not equal limp from EP. Assuming the table has at least 1 other competent player at the table, our limp is going to get raised a lot, which could fold out the mark and leave us OOP to defend
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Old 02-12-2016, 10:41 PM   #13379
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Also that limp looks really really suspicious if there's a couple thinkers at the table.
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:45 PM   #13380
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Over repping your limp range in that spot is a good thing.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:03 AM   #13381
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FWIW, I play in a shallow game very regularly. Good players don't bother with this game, because they feel either their edge is in deeper games or they get owned for basically becoming a calling station.

Shallower stacks apparently are pretty detrimental for "good" players and that doesn't seem to be a bad thing if you know how to adjust.
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Old 02-13-2016, 12:51 AM   #13382
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This is very good stuff, BTW.
+1 - no "good" players ever buy-in for less than max at LLSNL...
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:42 AM   #13383
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Huh? Why straddle? You get in the same effective position by just limping.
Good point. What a fish!
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Old 02-13-2016, 04:53 AM   #13384
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That's a frequently used reason, but really incorrect.

Your hypothetical 3bb/hr is based on certain stacks in play (eg, it's well-accepted that in general your win rate goes up, the deeper the fish's stack is ), but what you don't realize is, when you double the blinds, you don't double the stacks in play. Where is the extra money coming from?

Really simplified example: your win rate of 3bb/hour comes mostly from stacking a fish's 100bb stack. When you double the blinds, the fish now has a 50bb stack - which means it's impossible to maintain your 3bb/hour rate at a higher $ bb as you suggested.

Also, you are assuming everyone still plays the same when the blinds are $10 instead of $5, which is simply not true.

Now let's say everyone's stack also increases proportionally to the big blind, then of course you win way more. That never happens in a capped game though.

I always advocate playing deeper (not like 1000bbs, but more than 40bbs ) because a pro's biggest edge is that fish stacks off incorrectly way too often. You want to pay as less to get them to pay as much as possible.
Yeah I was just giving a hypothetical. Of course in reality many of the factors would change. Still, I think it would be more profitable to increase the stakes for a sacrifice in winrate. I mean if you're doubling the stakes your winrate would have to be more than cut in half for the deeper game to be more profitable and I don't think the drop in winrate would be that drastic for most winning players. Also not everyone will see a winrate decrease. The regfish who have a decent preflop and flop game but suck at playing rivers would likely benefit from a shallower game. Or it can allow the loose aggro guys to run the table over because the bigger blinds makes most of the table scared money which makes them play more fit or fold on flops.
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Old 02-13-2016, 05:54 AM   #13385
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Problem is that we're all projecting our own game into this discussion.

Do players in 1/2 or 3/5 see 2bb straddle as cutting their effective stack down by half? Hell no.

Do players adjust to the idea that $100 pot is really the same as $50 pot? Hell no.

$100 pot is just $100 pot to typical LLSNL players and they adjust to increased blinds and size of pot by subconsciously playing even tighter. I won't lie, I do the same.

What does that mean in an already tight game? It means you get to steal fatter blinds pre flop and with cbet on the flop. Is it profitable? Hell yes. Is it high variance? Not really, because LLSNL players only know one adjustment when it comes to big pots: "big pots, big hand."

At end of the day, if your game is full of competent players and not typical LLSNL donks who are all winners in their own head, then straddling might not be the answer to create more actions, but for rest of posters who do play a lot of LLSNL, straddling is not a bad idea.
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:14 AM   #13386
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Problem is that we're all projecting our own game into this discussion.

Do players in 1/2 or 3/5 see 2bb straddle as cutting their effective stack down by half? Hell no.

Do players adjust to the idea that $100 pot is really the same as $50 pot? Hell no.

$100 pot is just $100 pot to typical LLSNL players and they adjust to increased blinds and size of pot by subconsciously playing even tighter. I won't lie, I do the same.

What does that mean in an already tight game? It means you get to steal fatter blinds pre flop and with cbet on the flop. Is it profitable? Hell yes. Is it high variance? Not really, because LLSNL players only know one adjustment when it comes to big pots: "big pots, big hand."

At end of the day, if your game is full of competent players and not typical LLSNL donks who are all winners in their own head, then straddling might not be the answer to create more actions, but for rest of posters who do play a lot of LLSNL, straddling is not a bad idea.
If my table has a competent player it's usually because the floor hasn't allowed my table change yet.
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:16 AM   #13387
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Best player at my 2-5 table the other day thought he lost the hand with AA against 87 on 872,3,2 board.
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:31 AM   #13388
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Problem is that we're all projecting our own game into this discussion.

Do players in 1/2 or 3/5 see 2bb straddle as cutting their effective stack down by half? Hell no.

Do players adjust to the idea that $100 pot is really the same as $50 pot? Hell no.

$100 pot is just $100 pot to typical LLSNL players and they adjust to increased blinds and size of pot by subconsciously playing even tighter. I won't lie, I do the same.

What does that mean in an already tight game? It means you get to steal fatter blinds pre flop and with cbet on the flop. Is it profitable? Hell yes. Is it high variance? Not really, because LLSNL players only know one adjustment when it comes to big pots: "big pots, big hand."

At end of the day, if your game is full of competent players and not typical LLSNL donks who are all winners in their own head, then straddling might not be the answer to create more actions, but for rest of posters who do play a lot of LLSNL, straddling is not a bad idea.
This is exactly right.

In my game, nothing changes except to make a bigger pot in $ terms. In a game where actual adjustments are made, it may not be good.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:41 PM   #13389
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Best player at my 2-5 table the other day thought he lost the hand with AA against 87 on 872,3,2 board.
You must have had a few too many.
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:44 PM   #13390
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You must have had a few too many.
Good thing I tabled the hand, eh?
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Old 02-13-2016, 01:52 PM   #13391
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Best player at my 2-5 table the other day thought he lost the hand with AA against 87 on 872,3,2 board.
Where is your game?
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:21 PM   #13392
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Where is your game?
I'm a poker nomad, this game was Tuesday afternoon, Hard Rock Hollywood, in lolFL.
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:23 PM   #13393
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Problem is that we're all projecting our own game into this discussion.

Do players in 1/2 or 3/5 see 2bb straddle as cutting their effective stack down by half? Hell no.

Do players adjust to the idea that $100 pot is really the same as $50 pot? Hell no.

$100 pot is just $100 pot to typical LLSNL players and they adjust to increased blinds and size of pot by subconsciously playing even tighter. I won't lie, I do the same.

What does that mean in an already tight game? It means you get to steal fatter blinds pre flop and with cbet on the flop. Is it profitable? Hell yes. Is it high variance? Not really, because LLSNL players only know one adjustment when it comes to big pots: "big pots, big hand."

At end of the day, if your game is full of competent players and not typical LLSNL donks who are all winners in their own head, then straddling might not be the answer to create more actions, but for rest of posters who do play a lot of LLSNL, straddling is not a bad idea.
Think you are directed this at me because you somehow believe if the stakes are higher, the math magically changes.

Let me dumb it down for you with an extreme example, then it'll be easier to see:

1/2 game, $200 max buy in.

Mandatory straddle 50x, to $100, everyone has 2bbs to start.

What do you think happens to your win rate? Think about your range, paying blinds, implied odds, direct odds.

Is a 10bb/hr winner suddenly winning $1000/hour (10x$100) now? Is he even winning 1bb, or 0.1bb?

Last edited by Snowball2; 02-13-2016 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:47 PM   #13394
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^ Clearly there's a big difference between 2bb play and 50bb play. If you're going to give that extreme of an example then we have to do one for the other end as well. What about a game where the blinds are 25c/50c and everyone is 1000bbs deep vs a 2/5 game with everyone 100bbs deep? Are you saying the 25c/50c game will have a higher hourly?
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:50 PM   #13395
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That's a silly example because the game changes so drastically. 50bb and 100bb just changes the value of SCs and set mining mostly, 2bb you get into a very mathematical game that's easily GTO solvable, and most players would play waaay to tight. I guess win rate would be super high if you knew how to play this game optimally against randoms.
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Old 02-13-2016, 02:54 PM   #13396
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^ Clearly there's a big difference between 2bb play and 50bb play. If you're going to give that extreme of an example then we have to do one for the other end as well. What about a game where the blinds are 25c/50c and everyone is 1000bbs deep vs a 2/5 game with everyone 100bbs deep? Are you saying the 25c/50c game will have a higher hourly?
In terms of big blinds an hour.. obviously

(This is referring back to you saying if you win at 3bbx5 = $15/hr, you can win 3bbx$20=60/hr)

Furthermore, just to clarify, my problem isn't with bumping up the blinds, it's with stack depth where it becomes <50bbs in 100bb capped games. You lose a LOT of your edge as a cash player when it's reduced to a shove/fold game (like in a later stage of tournament) - and thats exactly what you said - "a big difference between" deeper and shallower play. Otherwise, i'm happy to straddle in a game where the eff stack is at least around 100bbs.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:12 PM   #13397
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That's a silly example because the game changes so drastically. 50bb and 100bb just changes the value of SCs and set mining mostly, 2bb you get into a very mathematical game that's easily GTO solvable, and most players would play waaay to tight. I guess win rate would be super high if you knew how to play this game optimally against randoms.
I don't think GTO means what you think it means.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:40 PM   #13398
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I don't think GTO means what you think it means.
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Old 02-13-2016, 03:49 PM   #13399
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You lose a LOT of your edge as a cash player when it's reduced to a shove/fold game (like in a later stage of tournament) - and thats exactly what you said - "a big difference between" deeper and shallower play. Otherwise, i'm happy to straddle in a game where the eff stack is at least around 100bbs.
I disagree.

Have you ever watched a LLSNL donkament? Players routinely limp/fold 20% of their stacks and passively bleed away their stacks.

That's how LLSNL players adjust to straddle when the effective stacks are halved. If anything, the edge becomes greater against bunch of players who cannot adjust to a 50bb game.

And you have to remember what the original comparison was:

100bb bad game vs 50bb (straddle) game.

If people are playing too passively and folding too much, how could you consider raising the blinds a bad thing?
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Old 02-13-2016, 04:00 PM   #13400
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Think you are directed this at me because you somehow believe if the stakes are higher, the math magically changes.
No dude.

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Let me dumb it down for you with an extreme example, then it'll be easier to see:

1/2 game, $200 max buy in.

Mandatory straddle 50x, to $100, everyone has 2bbs to start.

What do you think happens to your win rate? Think about your range, paying blinds, implied odds, direct odds.

Is a 10bb/hr winner suddenly winning $1000/hour (10x$100) now? Is he even winning 1bb, or 0.1bb?
Oh hey, thanks for speaking down to my level by dumbing it down.

Quote:
What do you think happens to your win rate? Think about your range, paying blinds, implied odds, direct odds.
Obviously at 2bb, there isn't any decision, and maybe that's why "good" players such as yourself stay away from any games less than 100bb, because maybe they all see them as 2bb game.

Hence I said earlier, good players don't play short games because they turn into calling station, the only way they know how to play short stacks.

Even at 50bb, LLSNL players don't adjust by doubling their bet or calling bigger pots with the same range, and that's where our edge is. If you don't get that, I can't dumb it down any further.
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