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Old 12-14-2015, 04:52 AM   #12101
ZuneIt
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybuz
Played east coast. Ran average to mediocre. Played my typical game - tight preflop hand selection and value betting into oblivion.
Is this too tight for o/r? 10 handed:
UTG: 77+ ATs+ AJo+ T9s+ 9.35% range

UTG+1 & 2: add 66, 87s, KQo. 10.7% range

UTG+3: add 55 KJs 11.5% range

UTG+4: add 33/44 65s/76s; J9s+; KTs+ 13.9% range

UTG+5: [Hijack] add 22; 54s; 75s; A5s/A7s+ 17.9% range

CO: add A2s+; ATo; K6s+; KJo; Q7s+; QJo; J8s+; 64s; 23.7% range

Button: add: K2s+; Q2s+; J5s+; T6s+ 74s+ 53s+; 43s+ A2o+; K7o+, Q9o+; J9o+; T8o+; 98o; 87o; 47.5% range.

These ranges come from different sources. However, it's rare that's it's folded to me in the CO or later. The bulk of good play pre is knowing your V's range in front of you, wouldn't you say?
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:03 AM   #12102
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IMO I prefer the 15/25/35 guideline with marginal hands. Stakes dependent of course, but I've found this to be a very profitable preflop range
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:40 AM   #12103
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Originally Posted by jaicee5 View Post
IMO I prefer the 15/25/35 guideline with marginal hands. Stakes dependent of course, but I've found this to be a very profitable preflop range
are you talkin' about an expectation of makin' 15x your preflop investment for PPs; 25x for suited connectors & 35x for 1gap SCs?

I'm talking about an o/r range where everyone has folded to you preflop.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:55 AM   #12104
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Oh yeah whoops my bad misread
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:04 AM   #12105
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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
Is this too tight for o/r? 10 handed:
UTG: 77+ ATs+ AJo+ T9s+ 9.35% range

UTG+1 & 2: add 66, 87s, KQo. 10.7% range

UTG+3: add 55 KJs 11.5% range

UTG+4: add 33/44 65s/76s; J9s+; KTs+ 13.9% range

UTG+5: [Hijack] add 22; 54s; 75s; A5s/A7s+ 17.9% range

CO: add A2s+; ATo; K6s+; KJo; Q7s+; QJo; J8s+; 64s; 23.7% range

Button: add: K2s+; Q2s+; J5s+; T6s+ 74s+ 53s+; 43s+ A2o+; K7o+, Q9o+; J9o+; T8o+; 98o; 87o; 47.5% range.

These ranges come from different sources. However, it's rare that's it's folded to me in the CO or later. The bulk of good play pre is knowing your V's range in front of you, wouldn't you say?
Either you are missing a position or this is 9handed. I think its good to have a set range of opening hands and yours seem pretty solid. However it is important to be able to adapt to certain table dynamics and tweek these ranges ingame.
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:05 PM   #12106
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Originally Posted by cannabusto View Post
Thanks, bip. Yes, I know it never will actually converge, but I do know a good/bad week or month won't have a massive effect after playing a few thousand hours, but could affect things considerably in a smaller sample.

And thanks for pointing out that the std is per hour. I was thinking in those terms but realize it wouldn't be obvious to a reader.
Use this http://pokerdope.com/poker-variance-calculator/

Just instead of using stats per 100 hands, use hours. It's the same math.
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:07 PM   #12107
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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
Is this too tight for o/r? 10 handed:
UTG: 77+ ATs+ AJo+ T9s+ 9.35% range

UTG+1 & 2: add 66, 87s, KQo. 10.7% range

UTG+3: add 55 KJs 11.5% range

UTG+4: add 33/44 65s/76s; J9s+; KTs+ 13.9% range

UTG+5: [Hijack] add 22; 54s; 75s; A5s/A7s+ 17.9% range

CO: add A2s+; ATo; K6s+; KJo; Q7s+; QJo; J8s+; 64s; 23.7% range

Button: add: K2s+; Q2s+; J5s+; T6s+ 74s+ 53s+; 43s+ A2o+; K7o+, Q9o+; J9o+; T8o+; 98o; 87o; 47.5% range.

These ranges come from different sources. However, it's rare that's it's folded to me in the CO or later. The bulk of good play pre is knowing your V's range in front of you, wouldn't you say?
Not too tight. Raising SCs from EP is fairly suicidal imo. Wouldn't open under QJs from EP.
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:28 PM   #12108
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Thanks t_roy! What would your range look like for the 1st 3 seats after the BB?

Ed Miller, in his book "The Course" is recommending 22+ A2s+ KTs+ QTs+ 76s+ AQo+, for all seats from UTG down to CO, which he says can be adjusted for table dynamics, etc.

I find it outrageously loose for UTG+1/2/3 in a 10 handed game.

He says the main point is the frequency in which we enter the pot, which would be ~14%. You're also opening for a raise.

ALSO: you'll hold a PP 41% of the time, suited cards 46% of the time & offsuit cards only 14% of the time.

However, I find in my typical 1/2 games an average stack of $200-$250, so I don't know that a suited connector is nearly as valuable as when the stacks are deeper.
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:40 PM   #12109
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So he more or less recommends the same opening range regardless of position? Really?
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Old 12-14-2015, 02:13 PM   #12110
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The book provides 4 ranges (EP, CO, BU, and blinds) with the reasoning that it's much easier to remember 4 ranges rather than 10 and the differences between UTG and UTG+2 are not really that important. Clearly his EP range is suboptimal in that you should play fewer hands UTG and more hands in the HJ, but I think the composition of the opening range is the most interesting part. Like the fact that he recommends opening 22 or A3s UTG while suggesting that you fold AJo in the HJ. It's food for thought for sure.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:09 PM   #12111
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I have yet to read about anyone killin' the 1/2 game opening with 22+ A2s+ KTs+ QTs+ 76s+ AQo+ from UTG & not opening up anymore until you get to the CO.

PLUS: His ranges are looser than what Matthew Janda recommends for 6 handed play in his book AONLH, which UTG 6-handed, is: 33+; 65s+ J9s+; KTs+; ATs+ AJo+; KQo.

Maybe the difference lies in the fact that Janda's book revolves around on-line play.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:13 PM   #12112
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Those ranges might suck
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:14 PM   #12113
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This discussion probably shouldn't be in this thread...
Any suited broadway>AJo from EP though
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:18 PM   #12114
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Janda's book is also very GTO-oriented, which is clearly not what Miller is talking about. If you read between the lines, his goal seems to be to select hands that can get a ton of money in against weak ranges and still have equity when called. A big theme is punishing weak ranges by putting in lots of money with a strong range, and a hand like AJo is not great for that because of RIO.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:27 PM   #12115
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lol amazing
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:36 PM   #12116
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lol amazing
I know. The amazing part being that I can't tell what's a troll and what isn't anymore.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:40 PM   #12117
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C
M
Kimmo mi
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Old 12-14-2015, 04:02 PM   #12118
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Miller's latest book was written almost as a "Poker for Dummies," hence he had some very specific things to follow.

Janda's book was written to target those who are already winning experts; it is aimed to educate them to be even more conscious of elements of game of poker.

Comparing these two books is non-sensical.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:20 PM   #12119
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Thanks t_roy! What would your range look like for the 1st 3 seats after the BB?

Ed Miller, in his book "The Course" is recommending 22+ A2s+ KTs+ QTs+ 76s+ AQo+, for all seats from UTG down to CO, which he says can be adjusted for table dynamics, etc.

I find it outrageously loose for UTG+1/2/3 in a 10 handed game.

He says the main point is the frequency in which we enter the pot, which would be ~14%. You're also opening for a raise.

ALSO: you'll hold a PP 41% of the time, suited cards 46% of the time & offsuit cards only 14% of the time.

However, I find in my typical 1/2 games an average stack of $200-$250, so I don't know that a suited connector is nearly as valuable as when the stacks are deeper.
That range seems a bit ridiculous to me. I know Miller plays mostly in Vegas and writes with those games in mind. Vegas games are fairly unique as I understand, so maybe it works there. In most places, I don't think that range is very good.

I don't have a specific range to give you, but I definitely wouldn't be opening small suited Aces and SCs from EP in my game.

You really can't go wrong playing quite tight from EP imo.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:07 PM   #12120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by de4df1sh View Post
Those ranges might suck
Miller's, Janda's, or both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
Janda's book is also very GTO-oriented, which is clearly not what Miller is talking about. If you read between the lines, his goal seems to be to select hands that can get a ton of money in against weak ranges and still have equity when called. A big theme is punishing weak ranges by putting in lots of money with a strong range, and a hand like AJo is not great for that because of RIO.
I've talked to a few good players I know & this came up. The problem is that you need better stack sizes than average of $200/$250 in 1/2 game filled with 4 or so TIGHT players lookin' to supplement their SSI with a $100 score for the day & scoot on home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer
lol amazing
What's amazing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel9861
I know. The amazing part being that I can't tell what's a troll and what isn't anymore.
Please elaborate.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:18 PM   #12121
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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
...Ed Miller, in his book "The Course" is recommending 22+ A2s+ KTs+ QTs+ 76s+ AQo+, for all seats from UTG down to CO, which he says can be adjusted for table dynamics, etc.

I find it outrageously loose for UTG+1/2/3 in a 10 handed game.

He says the main point is the frequency in which we enter the pot, which would be ~14%. You're also opening for a raise.

ALSO: you'll hold a PP 41% of the time, suited cards 46% of the time & offsuit cards only 14% of the time...
This preflop hand selection strategy must be a joke. Open-Folding strong hands like AJo in MP and instead open-raising trash like A2s in MP?

Feels like lighting money on fire...
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:41 PM   #12122
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Is it possible that Miller's opening ranges are one massive level intended to open up the games and encourage people to play incorrectly against his opening ranges?
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:47 PM   #12123
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Is it possible that Miller's opening ranges are one massive level intended to open up the games and encourage people to play incorrectly against his opening ranges?
Don't think so, but possible. Miller's strat in the Vegas games is to basically hit the nuts and get paid, or take a ton of pots away from Vegas nits when they cap their ranges. I can see how this range is in line with that general strat. Again, Vegas is special.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:19 PM   #12124
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This preflop hand selection strategy must be a joke. Open-Folding strong hands like AJo in MP and instead open-raising trash like A2s in MP?

Feels like lighting money on fire...
Please enlighten us how AJo has more playability than A2s
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Old 12-14-2015, 11:18 PM   #12125
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Please enlighten us how AJo has more playability than A2s
lol.
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