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Old 10-19-2015, 01:56 AM   #11451
mpethybridge
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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Without getting all existential here, I just know the corporate world does not suit me for the long-term. Sitting in front of a computer for 10-12 hours a day does not suit my personality and I see work is a means to an end.

I know there are people that enjoy that type of life/grind/whatever but I cannot say I am one of them. Always envisioned taking the entrepreneurial route so I'm just waiting until the right opportunity presents itself. There are a few items on my checklist I would have to cross off first before feeling comfortable with the decision, so realistically it's at least 6-12 months off still.

Will keep thinking on it and putting in the hours.
Well, I guess I am the voice of dissent here. I quit a six figure job--I owned a 9 lawyer law firm--to grind for a living.

I'm playing 1/2 and 1/3. For a variety of reasons, I've been stuck at 1/2 and 1/3 for 4 years. I have had long stretches of epic run bad. I'm making about 1/8 of what I made with my law firm. None of the expectations I had when I quit law have been fulfilled.

Despite all that, I have no regrets. I'm happier now than I ever was practicing law. The freedom, the independence, the lifestyle, all of it I value much more than the money I gave up. I'd do it all over again even if I knew the 4 year struggle that lay ahead of me.

That said, I think there's a smarter way for you to go about quitting than just to quit. It involves ensuring that you have a reliable passive income--maybe the app, maybe some real estate investments--to cushion the transition and create some long term wealth that you'll have in the years ahead.

So my advice would be this: if you want to go pro, go pro. But first, develop and execute a plan designed to provide you passive income. You're in a better position to develop that plan than I am to offer advice on what it should be. So I am just going to counsel a little patience. But if you want to do it, and you understand the costs as well as the benefits, then do it. There's more to life than just money.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:15 AM   #11452
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Best advice for Johnny's situation, solid post Mpethy
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:08 AM   #11453
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Quote:
Well, I guess I am the voice of dissent here. I quit a six figure job--I owned a 9 lawyer law firm--to grind for a living.
how old were you when you left your old profession, if you don't mind my asking?
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Old 10-19-2015, 11:00 AM   #11454
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Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post

I'm playing 1/2 and 1/3. For a variety of reasons, I've been stuck at 1/2 and 1/3 for 4 years. I have had long stretches of epic run bad. I'm making about 1/8 of what I made with my law firm. None of the expectations I had when I quit law have been fulfilled.
Wow..I remember reading ur post 4yrs ago about how were about to grind 1/2 for a living..Ur long stretches of epic run bad--is that still in the realm of normal variance or are u going thru a negative outlier?
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Old 10-19-2015, 11:01 AM   #11455
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Agree 100% with mpethy, he's just much better with them wurds
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Old 10-19-2015, 11:32 AM   #11456
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I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being ignorant but I am saving most of it. Like I said, between 2500 hours at my job and 850 hours in the poker room, my time to "build" financial independence is extremely limited.
I was def not trolling.

you said specifically that playing poker can lead to financial independence, which you define as passive income, but your 6 figure job could not lead to financial independence. unless you are going to make more playing poker than you do at your job, the 6 figure job is going to lead to financial independence quicker.

money begets money in most cases. your one example is a great example. you're looking to invest in an app. that takes money. the only way that quitting your job to play poker gets you to financial independence quicker is if a) you make more money playing poker than your job or b) you use the time to create something that could lead to more money, ie design the app yourself. in other cases, you're going to make more money to invest quicker by working a normal job


beyond all that. if you do actually quit working full time, is there anyway you can freelance in your industry or work part time?? this would be how you can avoid explaining time gaps in your resume if you ever decide to stop playing full time and go back to work


at my last company (i'm an engineer), i would have never thought people work part time at all. i got a new job 6 months ago and work with several people who work part time. 1 guy works like 20 hours/week. sometimes all you have to do is ask.

if i ever get to the point that i quit working to play full time, i would start my own company and basically take minimal work. this way i'm still "working" and if i ever wanted to get back to regular work, i just say i started my own company and worked less because of personal reasons.

either way, good luck with whatever you choose.
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Old 10-19-2015, 11:52 AM   #11457
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Appreciate all the responses over the past few days. May reach out to some of you guys via PM.

JOTS, funny you should mention the temp angle. I was actually thinking if I decide to do this, I would contract with a high-level head hunter/temp company looking for 1 week/month work for a little variance free income to cover some expenses.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:29 PM   #11458
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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
I was def not trolling.

you said specifically that playing poker can lead to financial independence, which you define as passive income, but your 6 figure job could not lead to financial independence. unless you are going to make more playing poker than you do at your job, the 6 figure job is going to lead to financial independence quicker.

money begets money in most cases. your one example is a great example. you're looking to invest in an app. that takes money. the only way that quitting your job to play poker gets you to financial independence quicker is if a) you make more money playing poker than your job or b) you use the time to create something that could lead to more money, ie design the app yourself. in other cases, you're going to make more money to invest quicker by working a normal job


beyond all that. if you do actually quit working full time, is there anyway you can freelance in your industry or work part time?? this would be how you can avoid explaining time gaps in your resume if you ever decide to stop playing full time and go back to work


at my last company (i'm an engineer), i would have never thought people work part time at all. i got a new job 6 months ago and work with several people who work part time. 1 guy works like 20 hours/week. sometimes all you have to do is ask.

if i ever get to the point that i quit working to play full time, i would start my own company and basically take minimal work. this way i'm still "working" and if i ever wanted to get back to regular work, i just say i started my own company and worked less because of personal reasons.

either way, good luck with whatever you choose.
This is a good post. Quitting a 6-figure job to obtain *financial* independence with poker is crazysauce. You're trading employment at a traditional job for employment at a casino. You have scheduling independence and operational independence, but your level of financial dependence on a source of income has not improved at all. And in fact, you are likely putting off the day you achieve financial independence by playing poker full time because your income will likely be lower, especially when you consider all the benefits you are losing (SS credits, 401(k) access, tax-free group health insurance, accumulation of personal/organizational capital, etc.).

Starting a side business for financial independence makes perfect sense. But then why not continue working for cash and spend your current poker time on the side business?
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:35 PM   #11459
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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
A sustained winrate > my hourly at my job

Poker confidence is at an all-time high, but I think more importantly I've really worked on my game/table selection and situational awareness over the last 3-4 months whereas the first half of the year was focused mainly on leaks, decision making, etc.
+1 to the responses of not going pro (especially from the pros in this thread)

1000 hours is such a lol sample size, it really is. At 1800 hours, I was still maintaining my crushing ~10bb/hr, but 665 hours later, I ain't finding it quite that easy, and the game I play in is *soooooo* good. My winrate this year is 1/4 of my 2013 winrate. How well are you going to do on 1/4 of your current winrate? The amount of all forms of variance you will encounter in this game will stagger you; you will encounter them as you put in the hours.

Also, I'm not sure of M's circumstances, but I'm guessing as a lawyer he was able to save up quite the little nest egg to fall back on if things didn't work out (he can correct me if I'm wrong). I'm guessing you're not in the same place?

If your job is soul crushing with crazy hours, fair enough. But there's nothing stopping your from finding another job with guaranteed good income, while keeping poker on the side as a nice hobby / distraction / possible holiday income.

GimoG
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:44 PM   #11460
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Starting a side business for financial independence makes perfect sense. But then why not continue working for cash and spend your current poker time on the side business?
Takes money to make money.

I'm at the "capital accumulation" stage of whatever my timeline looks like. I also think the stock market is long overdue for a sizable correction so I want to have as much cash on the sidelines as possible to buy-in when this thing inevitably blows up.
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Old 10-19-2015, 12:49 PM   #11461
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Well, if the activity that will most advance your side business is playing poker to accumulate capital, that makes perfect sense. It would also sort-of make sense to quit your job to work on your side business full time and then conclude that the current priority side business activity is playing poker for cash, but it's a little implausible. Nobody actually puts in 3k+ hours at poker (certainly not at a nights and weekends winrate), so that move probably sacrifices cash compared to poker + work.
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Old 10-19-2015, 01:50 PM   #11462
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Amit Mahija [with 2.6M in live tournament winnings & 3M in online tournament winnings] has this to say about the pro poker lifestyle & he isn't the only one whose comments are similar:

There are some negative aspects to life as a poker pro. It's a very isolating experience. There are people who you are good friends with that you need to beat day in & day out. It seems that people are never fully happy for you either.. Your upswing is their downswing & even if they aren't running that bad, they are depressing because they are not doing quite as well as you. Nobody is ever at the same place, mentally."

I can relate to this 100% at the 1/2 NL level! I shall give one quick example, in the event anyone cares:

So, I developed a poker bond with a much younger guy who has been studying his ass off trying to improve. He is a good player, but he has an ego problem. When he's running bad [or gaining no traction] on a given day, he will ignore the fact that I have entered the poker room, which is small & fail to initiate a hello, or call me out.

See, he is one of those who is hard to easily spot in the room & sometimes I'll miss him but when I do spot him I'll stop by & say hello.

Anyway, the other night I arrive at the room late in the evening & get seated at a table not far from his. I have yet to realize he is there but I can see that his friend is at the table & wave when I see him looking my way but I guess he didn't see me.

Shortly thereafter, the two get up from the table & walk away from their table to chat & are standing not 5 feet from me. I say hello, but they are talking & not looking my way but there is no way in hell they didn't notice me. Plus, I am sitting on ~$350, so I'm not stuck so they shouldn't think that by coming over they'd be embarrassing me, which many players feel when someone comes by when they are stuck.

On to 2 days later when I see him. I again arrive after he does & get seated at a table down from his. I recognize him, & despite the previous occurrence, I say hello as I'm walking by & I get a nod in response.

Fast forward 2 hrs later when I'm going to have dinner with another friend. After the dealer change & I get up, I stop by my the guy's table I'm having dinner with to let him know where I'll be & walk out of the poker room. I have to walk by the table of the guy I'm talking about & he calls me out by name. LOUD. He must really want to talk to me.

Now he must really want to talk to me, because I can't remember him doing that. I'm not even sure it was my name I heard, because it's so loud in there, but it sounded like his voice. So I turn around.

He's waving me over. So, I walk over & he asks if I am "putting anything together over there" ....... I tell him no, that I'm just floating along. He nods his head up & down like one of those head bobbing toys.

He has nothing else to say. That's it. Just bobbing his head, acknowledging what I've told him, waiting for me to recognize the fact that he's sitting on ~$600.00. He usually buys in for $200.

Finally, I realize he went thru all that trouble to call me over for no other reason but to show off his stack. He has nothing else to say. I thought he had some news or something, so, I told him I was going to dinner & keep on hammerin' 'em & left.

His ego is so bad, that when he pulled off a bluff on the river, OOP, by betting ~$140 otr into 2 players & they folded, that he tossed his hand face up into the middle of the table showing he had nothing but king high.

Now I know another guy, ~47 yrs old, that is the exact opposite. He'll come over to my table to tell me that he is at an action table & I should also get over there as quick as possible. He'll then tell me "I'm already stuck $400 but I know I'll get it back" and "You should get over there asap before the fish go broke."

However, he's a rare bird.

He'll even stop by on his way out to say: "Man they ate me alive tonight! I've gotta' give up for today."

Last edited by ZuneIt; 10-19-2015 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 10-19-2015, 02:20 PM   #11463
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I read the two experiences completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
Amit Mahija [with 2.6M in live tournament winnings & 3M in online tournament winnings] has this to say about the pro poker lifestyle & he isn't the only one whose comments are similar:

There are some negative aspects to life as a poker pro. It's a very isolating experience. There are people who you are good friends with that you need to beat day in & day out. It seems that people are never fully happy for you either.. Your upswing is their downswing & even if they aren't running that bad, they are depressing because they are not doing quite as well as you. Nobody is ever at the same place, mentally."
Friendship develop amongst regulars as almost kind of a working relationship, just like most other professions except that players are working against each other.

However, it really isn't much different than a lot of competitive firms or even schools in which people do slaughter each other to get ahead, real life Hunger Game.

Amit is comparing it to something different, such as working for a small company in which everyone share a common goal and everyone receive the same positive result when that goal is met.

On the other hand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
I can relate to this 100% at the 1/2 NL level! I shall give one quick example, in the event anyone cares:

So, I developed a poker bond with a much younger guy who has been studying his ass off trying to improve. He is a good player, but he has an ego problem. When he's running bad [or gaining no traction] on a given day, he will ignore the fact that I have entered the poker room, which is small & fail to initiate a hello, or call me out.

See, he is one of those who is hard to easily spot in the room & sometimes I'll miss him but when I do spot him I'll stop by & say hello.

Anyway, the other night I arrive at the room late in the evening & get seated at a table not far from his. I have yet to realize he is there but I can see that his friend is at the table & wave when I see him looking my way but I guess he didn't see me.

Shortly thereafter, the two get up from the table & walk away from their table to chat & are standing not 5 feet from me. I say hello, but they are talking & not looking my way but there is no way in hell they didn't notice me. Plus, I am sitting on ~$350, so I'm not stuck so they shouldn't think that by coming over they'd be embarrassing me, which many players feel when someone comes by when they are stuck.
It just reads like you're desperate for social interaction, and it's actually very normal for most OMC who walks into a poker room.

It's not that you guys are working against each other per se, because after all, most LLSNL pools are big enough that you can actually avoid each other and do fine.

It is very different than someone who's playing at a very high level that has a much smaller pool and every player becomes necessary target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
On to 2 days later when I see him. I again arrive after he does & get seated at a down from his. I recognize him, & despite the previous occurrence, I say hello as I'm walking by & I get a nod in response.

Fast forward 2 hrs later when I'm going to have dinner with another friend. After the dealer change & I get up, I stop by my the guy's table I'm having dinner with to let him know where I'll be & walk out of the poker room. I have to walk by the table of the guy I'm talking about & he calls me out by name. LOUD. He must really want to talk to me.

Now he must really want to talk to me, because I can't remember him doing that. I'm not even sure it was my name I heard, because it's so loud in there, but it sounded like his voice. So I turn around.

He's waving me over. So, I walk over & he asks if I am "putting anything together over there" ....... I tell him no, that I'm just floating along. He nods his head up & down like one of those head bobbing toys.

He has nothing else to say. That's it. Just bobbing his head, acknowledging what I've told him, waiting for me to recognize the fact that he's sitting on ~$600.00. He usually buys in for $200.

Finally, I realize he went thru all that trouble to call me over for no other reason but to show off his stack. He has nothing else to say. I thought he had some news or something, so, I told him I was going to dinner & keep on hammerin' 'em & left.

His ego is so bad, that when he pulled off a bluff on the river, OOP, by betting ~$140 otr into 2 players & they folded, that he tossed his hand face up into the middle of the table showing he had nothing but king high.

Now I know another guy, ~47 yrs old, that is the exact opposite. He'll come over to my table to tell me that he is at an action table & I should also get over there as quick as possible. He'll then tell me "I'm already stuck $400 but I know I'll get it back" and "You should get over there asap before the fish go broke."

However, he's a rare bird.

He'll even stop by on his way out to say: "Man they ate me alive tonight! I've gotta' give up for today."
FWIW, above is kind of craycray in the stalkerish kind of way.

Anyhow, thank you for putting in words of the kind of social interactions that OMC's are looking for in a poker room.
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Old 10-19-2015, 02:53 PM   #11464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete
It just reads like you're desperate for social interaction, and it's actually very normal for most OMC who walks into a poker room.
This is ridiculous. I didn't realize how many people I knew really well until a conversation came up about the risks of loaning money to poker players. I would never do that I thought, except a few. Then I started counting people that I've known over a decade & would loan money to without any worry whatsoever of getting paid back.

Mostly because they are very well off, I have "broke break" with them before & the only reason they have no cash is because they didn't bring much & don't want to pay the ridiculous fee to make a bank withdrawal.

I counted well over a dozen. And, if I was in a jam, say where my car broke down at midnight & my wife wasn't in town to come & get me, I'd be able to get one of them on the phone to come & pick me up. Even if they had to drive 60 miles.

Last winter, when it was freezing out, a friend of mine's diesel wouldn't start. It was one of those big trucks & he needed to hook up an electrical heater to it. So I loaned him my car to drive 20 miles home & get the heater, go to Wal-Mart buy an extension cord & hook it up.

I'm done playing later on & we try together to no avail, so I take him home

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuneit
On to 2 days later when I see him. I again arrive after he does & get seated at a down from his. I recognize him, & despite the previous occurrence, I say hello as I'm walking by & I get a nod in response.

Fast forward 2 hrs later when I'm going to have dinner with another friend. After the dealer change & I get up, I stop by my the guy's table I'm having dinner with to let him know where I'll be & walk out of the poker room. I have to walk by the table of the guy I'm talking about & he calls me out by name. LOUD. He must really want to talk to me.

Now he must really want to talk to me, because I can't remember him doing that. I'm not even sure it was my name I heard, because it's so loud in there, but it sounded like his voice. So I turn around.

He's waving me over. So, I walk over & he asks if I am "putting anything together over there" ....... I tell him no, that I'm just floating along. He nods his head up & down like one of those head bobbing toys.

He has nothing else to say. That's it. Just bobbing his head, acknowledging what I've told him, waiting for me to recognize the fact that he's sitting on ~$600.00. He usually buys in for $200.

Finally, I realize he went thru all that trouble to call me over for no other reason but to show off his stack. He has nothing else to say. I thought he had some news or something, so, I told him I was going to dinner & keep on hammerin' 'em & left.

His ego is so bad, that when he pulled off a bluff on the river, OOP, by betting ~$140 otr into 2 players & they folded, that he tossed his hand face up into the middle of the table showing he had nothing but king high.

Now I know another guy, ~47 yrs old, that is the exact opposite. He'll come over to my table to tell me that he is at an action table & I should also get over there as quick as possible. He'll then tell me "I'm already stuck $400 but I know I'll get it back" and "You should get over there asap before the fish go broke."

However, he's a rare bird.

He'll even stop by on his way out to say: "Man they ate me alive tonight! I've gotta' give up for today."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete
FWIW, above is kind of craycray in the stalkerish kind of way.
"craycray" on whose part?! The guy who went out of his way to call me over to show off? I could understand that.

Or, the guy who says hello whether or not he's stuck? Or me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete
Anyhow, thank you for putting in words of the kind of social interactions that OMC's are looking for in a poker room.
Really now? OMC's are different in their social interactions than others?

What about my ~47 year old friend, who is a LAG and talks with everyone in the poker room? Makes it a point to learn everyone's name & be sociable?

Is he exhibiting "stalkerish" mannerisms?

When I went to dinner with him & his girlfriend, we talked sports, about his girlfriend's family, his family etc. No poker.

Anyways, this conversation isn't leading in the direction of what this thread is for. If you have anything further to say, PM me.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:03 PM   #11465
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You literally wrote a journal on ONE guy in the span of 2 days because he didn't acknowledge you.

Holy cow...
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:14 PM   #11466
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Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
You literally wrote a journal on ONE guy in the span of 2 days because he didn't acknowledge you.

Holy cow...
That one guy describes so many poker players.
I've talked about the "Peacock Walk" before, where both young, middle aged, & older players take a tour of the room with their 2 racks of winning to stop off & see their friends, but don't do the same thing when they have less than their winnings to cash out.

Well, this guy did the same thing, only from his seat at the table!

Now, if he had ever gone thru that much trouble to call me over to give me some news about something in the past, it would be different. However, this was an isolated event with this guy.

It describes life in the poker world, for the most part, perfectly.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:17 PM   #11467
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Ok, my bad. Did not mean to derail.
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:14 PM   #11468
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The posts coming from a variety of people here are actually not that bad. I enjoyed it and its nice to feel like other posters are real people.

+1 to the last few pages of posts.
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:50 PM   #11469
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how old were you when you left your old profession, if you don't mind my asking?
46

Quote:
Originally Posted by bstillmatic View Post
Wow..I remember reading ur post 4yrs ago about how were about to grind 1/2 for a living..Ur long stretches of epic run bad--is that still in the realm of normal variance or are u going thru a negative outlier?
Well, strictly speaking, a hugely negative outlier IS normal variance. Someone, somewhere, is basically guaranteed to be running worse than everyone else, right?

If i detailed my run bad, there would be a dozen people posting calling BS. It has been BAD. But I have never had a losing year, or anything, so it could definitely have been worse. I didn't post to ***** about my run bad, though, but to say there's more to life than how much money you make.
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Old 10-19-2015, 05:59 PM   #11470
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Any wife/kid strat for quitting job and playing full time?
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:01 PM   #11471
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M, I imagine you had a healthy savings account / house paid off / etc. by that time (if lawyer gigs pay what I imagine them to)?

Gyoursituationmightbedifferentthanmost,no?G
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:10 PM   #11472
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Any wife/kid strat for quitting job and playing full time?
My daughter was grown and out on her own when I quit to play for a living. We DID wait for that before we moved to Vegas. I would not have quit law while she was still in college.

Wife strat: Marry the perfect woman. My wife has never said one word about our dramatic change in lifestyle that wasn't completely supportive. Of course, she married me when I was a private first class in the army, so I have always known that having more money than we needed wasn't important to her, lol.
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:20 PM   #11473
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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M, I imagine you had a healthy savings account / house paid off / etc. by that time (if lawyer gigs pay what I imagine them to)?

Gyoursituationmightbedifferentthanmost,no?G
Less than you might think, actually. We have retirement money--that is off limits, period. We just don't touch it. But when I was lawyering, I had huge expenses--we didn't quit until we were out from under most of those.

The other thing was Black Friday for online poker. The Monday before Black Friday, we had over $100K in cash on hand. Then we wrote a big check to the IRS for taxes on my income (which was all on Full Tilt), a big check for our house here in Vegas, and then the Feds seized the rest on Full Tilt. On April 13, I was here with a $100K cushion. On April 14, I was here with nothing more than the $700 I had in my pocket. That $700 became my poker roll and my life roll, and it is the foundation we have lived on for 4 years plus, now.
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Old 10-19-2015, 06:30 PM   #11474
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Wow, damn.

I'd be so tempted to cancel that IRS check and send them a note saying "you idiots just seized this anyway".

Did you manage to get any of it back from FT?
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Old 10-19-2015, 07:10 PM   #11475
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Wow, damn.

I'd be so tempted to cancel that IRS check and send them a note saying "you idiots just seized this anyway".

Did you manage to get any of it back from FT?
Feds currently taking the (false) position that my FT $ was affiliate income I am not entitled to (it was actually coaching income, mainly). My appeal of that determination is pending, but I expect to lose, as they told me I had to prove it wasn't affiliate income, and lol, proving a negative.
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