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Old 10-17-2015, 06:54 PM   #11426
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Originally Posted by Drrr.Gonzo View Post
BTW spending all day in a casino sounds like a horrifying nightmare to me
Fyp?
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:11 PM   #11427
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It seems to me a lot of people here have never been fired or experienced poor work environments. The casino is Amazing. People literally give you their money just to see that you have a better hand than them. There is AC. I am free to leave as much as I would like and sometime I even get a free lunch or free drinks. I don't even have a supervisor. How great is that?
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:13 PM   #11428
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Without getting all existential here, I just know the corporate world does not suit me for the long-term. Sitting in front of a computer for 10-12 hours a day does not suit my personality and I see work is a means to an end.

I know there are people that enjoy that type of life/grind/whatever but I cannot say I am one of them. Always envisioned taking the entrepreneurial route so I'm just waiting until the right opportunity presents itself. There are a few items on my checklist I would have to cross off first before feeling comfortable with the decision, so realistically it's at least 6-12 months off still.

Will keep thinking on it and putting in the hours.



Whatcha mean?
Maybe the 850 hours spent playing poker might have been more productively spent? You know, "opportunity cost?"

Every 25 year old ever has thought that working in an office means selling their soul to THE MAN, btw.
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:53 PM   #11429
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How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.
Poker can be soul crushing too. What do you want to do in real estate?

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Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much.
Poker does not lead to financial independence any more than your job does. Money leads to financial independence. Poker could provide you more independence and flexibility overall.

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I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
What business?

Those players exist.

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1000 hours logged? Dude that's only half a year of full time. Put in 10,000 hours (or equivalent #hands online) and you'll start to approach enough experience to know if poker as a life is right for you.
You want him to wait another 10 years before making his decision?


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My man, please do not quit your job to play poker. It would be a huge mistake. Poker is not going anywhere. Put it on the back burner and focus on your job plus real estate. Once real estate is humming then quit yer job and then refocus on poker.

What I am saying is rely on poker as a last choice. I have said this a million times - poker is a great part time gig but as a full time deal I am positive you can do better
I agree with this. If you want to start focusing on investments or a business take a break from poker a bit. Heck, you could probably even start slacking a bit at work to focus on that stuff. I'm just saying, the worst they can do is fire you anyways and that shouldn't be much of a threat if your alternative is to quit anyways.

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Why the F would you play 2000 hours/year?!? Part of the appeal of poker is working less than working stiffs. If you're gonna work the same amount as a normal job, take the normal variance free job unless you make significantly more from poker, like 2-3x
One may play 2000 hrs a year because they want to become financially independent, or want to buy stuff, or they've been running bad and need to get out of the red, or maybe just maybe they are playing 2000 hours a year because it's their job.

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Financial independence = passive income. Yah I could stay at my company and retire at 62 with a $3 million 401k but that seems like a waste of a life to me.





Damn.. this is what everyone always says. Even a guy that left his corporate job to play told me the same thing. Is it really like crossing over a threshold from part time enthusiast to full-time player?

I would be taking a somewhat significant pay cut initially, but is freedom, flexibility and general happiness and well being worth the pay cut?





Yah the general idea would be not to quit my job just to log the same number of hours at the casino. It would be to work less hours, while having more time to devote to passive income streams.

When 2015 is all said and done I will have logged ~2500 hours at my real job and ~850 hours at the poker table. That's 3350 hours of labor "work" with no time devoted to passive income. Just a lot of saving and building up my nut. The pace is unsustainable though - I often go into work getting only 2-3 hours of sleep a night.

I have some investments in play right now and I think if I get to 200k in liquid assets it would make me feel comfortable enough to cut the cord. I wouldn't necessarily be playing to put food on the table, it would still be my side hustle while I am doing my real "work" during the day with real estate.

If ever there is a time to do something like this it's when you're young and single right? I probably couldn't get my exact job back if needed, but I could find another finance gig.
Not sure what kind of work you are talking about in real estate but it sounds like you are potentially going to be balancing two high risk professions, neither of which you have a proven record in, when you would be better off balancing a stable job with a risky side gig...until eventually you have grown the side gig to be more like a full time gig.


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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
A sustained winrate > my hourly at my job

Poker confidence is at an all-time high, but I think more importantly I've really worked on my game/table selection and situational awareness over the last 3-4 months whereas the first half of the year was focused mainly on leaks, decision making, etc.
I doubt your current real winrate is higher than your hourly, but when you consider job benefits it most certainly is not. Plus it's riskier.

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From many of your hands you've posted, I don't think there's a huge chance you'd make it right now as a full time pro.
Based on what I have read, I think he could make it but it's just not worth it IMO. If he was making under $50k/yr at his job I'd be more on board.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:37 PM   #11430
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It seems to me a lot of people here have never been fired or experienced poor work environments. The casino is Amazing. People literally give you their money just to see that you have a better hand than them. There is AC. I am free to leave as much as I would like and sometime I even get a free lunch or free drinks. I don't even have a supervisor. How great is that?
There's also just a weird stigma against going pro on twoplustwo. I remember one thread where this was particularly evident in he midstakes forum. People were giving their normal arguments against going full time, but we're taking it even further, saying things like "At least in other rough jobs (like serving as an example) you get the joy of knowing you improved someone's day." And other nonsense of that ilk, when no one who served ever has thought that. Buz if you want to go pro, make your own decision on it. Almost everyone here has a negative opinion on it, many of them invalid (like the guy who wants you to have a million hours before you even consider going pro). The only person whose opinion I might take into consideration is squid face, but even then he's just one man whose experience, goals and outlook is different from yours. Don't make a decision based off the pessimistic views of a bunch of people you don't know on a forum.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:45 PM   #11431
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

NLAP and the other dude who mentioned it - the 10,000 hours thing was an Outliers reference on the opposite extreme end to show that 1000 hours of live poker isn't a sufficient sample size. I think 2500 hours live is probably sufficient to get a good estimation of what your longterm hourly and winrate can be expected to be an equivalent number of hands played online
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Old 10-17-2015, 09:14 PM   #11432
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There's also just a weird stigma against going pro on twoplustwo. I remember one thread where this was particularly evident in he midstakes forum. People were giving their normal arguments against going full time, but we're taking it even further, saying things like "At least in other rough jobs (like serving as an example) you get the joy of knowing you improved someone's day." And other nonsense of that ilk, when no one who served ever has thought that. Buz if you want to go pro, make your own decision on it. Almost everyone here has a negative opinion on it, many of them invalid (like the guy who wants you to have a million hours before you even consider going pro). The only person whose opinion I might take into consideration is squid face, but even then he's just one man whose experience, goals and outlook is different from yours. Don't make a decision based off the pessimistic views of a bunch of people you don't know on a forum.
Good work at discrediting everyone else's advice without providing counterpoints nor any real substantive advice of your own.
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:13 PM   #11433
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i think live poker for a living is perfect for the right person, but very few people are that person
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:34 PM   #11434
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Good work at discrediting everyone else's advice without providing counterpoints nor any real substantive advice of your own.
My advice was that he not take the advice of people he doesn't know to make perhaps the biggest decision he will make in this stage of his life. He likely already knows the counterpoints. People here are saying being in a casino all day is a miserable grind. He says he finds what he's doing to already be a miserable grind so that's discounted. Someone (like myself) might say he is not a crushing player. Some will obviously believe otherwise. This question has been asked tons of times and gotten the same answers. Most of those answers come from people who have never done it and some couldn't do it if they wanted to. This skews their answers. Squid is the only person I know of who can actually be verified as a long time pro and offers a realistic perspective.

You for instance always offer posts I deem relatively well thought out and you seem to know what you're talking about. When t comes right down to it though I have no idea who you are or what you've accomplished in the game and I'd never take your advice over my own reasoning in a major life decision.
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:42 PM   #11435
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Maybe this should be moved over to the "True life IMA pro" thread
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Old 10-17-2015, 11:59 PM   #11436
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Only Squid is allowed to give advice in these forums because he's the only player that BirdsallSa can verify is legit.

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Maybe this should be moved over to the "True life IMA pro" thread
Good point.
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Old 10-18-2015, 12:27 AM   #11437
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If you leave your current job and the real estate/poker thing do not work, are you able to return to your field making a similar salary? If so, and you're dead set on this, give it a go. #yolo
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Old 10-18-2015, 12:31 AM   #11438
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Only Squid is allowed to give advice in these forums because he's the only player that BirdsallSa can verify is legit.



Good point.
Lol
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Old 10-18-2015, 12:52 AM   #11439
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If you leave your current job and the real estate/poker thing do not work, are you able to return to your field making a similar salary? If so, and you're dead set on this, give it a go. #yolo
I actually really really like this point. Johnny, you clearly have been wise with your money and will not go hungry or homeless, even if you went on a 20k downswing at 1/2 or 2/5. So go ahead and give it your best shot bro you have nothing to lose but some money and you're more than young enough to make the money back.

GL GL go for it man
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Old 10-18-2015, 02:31 AM   #11440
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I actually really really like this point. Johnny, you clearly have been wise with your money and will not go hungry or homeless, even if you went on a 20k downswing at 1/2 or 2/5. So go ahead and give it your best shot bro you have nothing to lose but some money and you're more than young enough to make the money back.

GL GL go for it man
Thank you for the kind words. I'd say there is an 80% chance I could get back into my field at a comparable salary if I were to crash and burn for a year or two. It would take some explaining in an interview, but I think I could spin it in a positive way.

I'm also in the process of investing in a mobile app and becoming a part owner which may require me to quit my job anyway to pursue it full time. If this app were to take off, I would be leaving my job with no salary but 15% equity in the app basically working full time on this and playing poker for income.

I'm at a weird stage of life right now (mid-20's, no family, kids, major responsibilities) but I feel like there are some potential important decisions/opportunities presenting themselves that will be pivotal points in my life when I look back on it years from now.

I've always felt I thrived on adversity and pressure - I hate feeling comfortable and complacent which is the way I am feeling at my job now.
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Old 10-18-2015, 02:39 AM   #11441
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Weird stage in your life? Haha mid 20s is where you really start finding out who you really are and what you want in life, embrace it. I've been catching up on this topic the past hour and it just sounds like you really want to turn pro. If your finances are in order as in you can still live when the cards dry up then go for it. It's probably the best time to do it since you have no dependents or significant other to consult with. If in doubt just go watch Rounders again haha. Good luck buddy hope you end up choosing what's best for you at this stage of your life
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Old 10-18-2015, 02:45 AM   #11442
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I don't think you've presented any compelling reasoning of how turning pro addresses your crossroad (whatever that is as I'm not really clear on that either). Your comment about the 3 million 401k being "a waste of a life", for example, how is playing full time poker any different? I feel like if the end game is financial independence, you have such better avenues of achieving that through the career path you've already paved. What this really sounds like a result of is you just getting bored, and I certainly don't think full time poker is the solution to that.

Also, how do you all of a sudden have so much cash to fling around? It seems like just yesterday you were on here whining nonstop about being under rolled to move up to 2/5.
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Old 10-18-2015, 03:00 AM   #11443
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I don't think you've presented any compelling reasoning of how turning pro addresses your crossroad (whatever that is as I'm not really clear on that either). Your comment about the 3 million 401k being "a waste of a life", for example, how is playing full time poker any different? I feel like if the end game is financial independence, you have such better avenues of achieving that through the career path you've already paved. What this really sounds like a result of is you just getting bored, and I certainly don't think full time poker is the solution to that.

Also, how do you all of a sudden have so much cash to fling around? It seems like just yesterday you were on here whining nonstop about being under rolled to move up to 2/5.
I was over rolled for 2/5. I didn't start playing 2/5 until I had a 15k roll. When I got frustrated from 2/5 and "moved down" to 1/3 (for a week), I still had a positive win rate of $10/hr over ~100 hours at 2/5. I just wanted a mental break from the variance. Since then I've won about $12k over last two months. I also don't commingle funds, so my poker roll and life roll are completely separate.

I work in finance. Saving and managing my money is my career. It's what I went to undergrad and grad school for. I max out my Roth 401k and Roth IRA. If I really needed to, I could cash out my retirement accounts for another 55k (less 10% penalty). Basically I feel like I am working and saving money for no particular purpose. I am just "existing" at the moment but not really living.

You are right though, I am incredibly bored at my job and just life in general. I jump out of airplanes and ski off 50 foot cliffs. So working on a computer in a cubicle just crushes my soul. I went to college and got a degree in a "practical" field that has job openings and pays well rather than get a degree in basket weaving with tens of thousands in student loan debt.

But I've always considered it my backup option. Ie: if all else fails, I could use this degree to make a living but I never wanted it to be my primary means of income.
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Old 10-18-2015, 03:30 AM   #11444
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What are you looking for Johnny?
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Old 10-18-2015, 03:36 AM   #11445
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I read an article on why visiting Japan is so different and more desirable than living there. It's about why people living in tourist hot spots are usually so miserable but it applies here as well. Instead of finding it, I'll summarize it to the best and laziest of my ability.

As a tourist you have freedom, an excess of funds, and a plethora of opportunities. When you enter the working community, what you once considered fun and excitement is now associated with responsibility and the monotony of a daily grind. Even when you do the same activities you might have when on vacation. It isn't "free" like it was then, you had to "earn" it. I think if selecting poker as a career isn't done for the right reasons, you'll experience this same phenomenon and that's assuming you crush the game.

I think a more prudent course of action would be to spend more time fleshing out your end game, and connecting value with the right actions. As of right now you see your job as a means to an end, but you're saving for no reason. So there is a mean to no end, and because of that your job has no value. It stands to reason poker (or anything else) would suffer the same judgement.

Also that was my last post about it because it really is a thread derail but I'd continue the convo in pm if you wanted.
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Old 10-18-2015, 04:59 AM   #11446
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Well, if I was mid 20's, had everything going for me that Johnny duz, then I'd hire one of them expensive coaches, spend 3-5k on him & then ask: "So, what do ya' think?" Am I ready?
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Old 10-18-2015, 05:52 AM   #11447
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Well, if I was mid 20's, had everything going for me that Johnny duz, then I'd hire one of them expensive coaches, spend 3-5k on him & then ask: "So, what do ya' think?" Am I ready?
I hope you're talking about a life coach, not a poker coach, cuz that is what jb needs. Lol midlife crisis at 25.
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Old 10-18-2015, 09:40 AM   #11448
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I hope you're talking about a life coach, not a poker coach, cuz that is what jb needs. Lol midlife crisis at 25.
I've heard quarter life crisis is actual a thing for the millenials nowadays.
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:44 AM   #11449
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You don't know how good you are at poker.

You don't know if more poker hours will be soul crushing.

You could scale back your work hours. You could find a different job in your field. You can change your attitude about your current job.

Gather more data. Talk to people in your field. Talk to a life coach. Talk to people with more life experience. Do you plan on kids someday. (they very expensive) Talk to Cammando.

In the end, YOLO, but I'd get better informed.

Good luck.
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Old 10-18-2015, 01:21 PM   #11450
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I've heard quarter life crisis is actual a thing for the millenials nowadays.
I think that's called "graduation".
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