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Old 10-17-2015, 04:27 AM   #11401
RelentlessDoubt
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by y0l0Theory View Post
Care to weigh in on BR requirements for a full time player transitioning to 5/10

Assume single, young, low monthly nut (2kish), low standard deviation, solid but not great win rate

What kind of downswings and break even stretches have u had?
$6k for expenses kept in separate checking account.
$10k set aside for two or three losing months
$10k to play with during the month

This is what I would use to play 5/T. I would keep $15k on the side for 2/5 if you go broke at higher levels and want to grind it back up
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Old 10-17-2015, 04:29 AM   #11402
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by de4df1sh View Post
How much does a Mississippi straddle change the variance in a game?
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Originally Posted by bip! View Post
It more than double the stakes. If the blinds call a lot, then it is nearly 3x the game.
Assuming the buyin doesn't change it won't the change the game that much at all
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Old 10-17-2015, 12:41 PM   #11403
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by bip! View Post
Yes - it would be swingier.. the cap restricts it somewhat, but that is no doubt a bigger game now
Wouldn't the short stack nature up the variance, not lessen it? Maybe wrong, but I always think short stackers have higher variance because they're going to showdown much more often.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:13 PM   #11404
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by t_roy View Post
Wouldn't the short stack nature up the variance, not lessen it? Maybe wrong, but I always think short stackers have higher variance because they're going to showdown much more often.

I have heard this debated both ways and really I don't think there is any solid data one way or the other. Easy to figure a $500 stack in 10/20 would certainly have >>> variance than a $500 stack in 1/2. But would a $500 stack in 10/20 have more variance than a $2k stack at 10/20?? Is there an inflection point where variance is at a minimum at like 70bb? Who knows, I am more suspicious that deeper is always higher variance.

However, unless someone always plays short sessions, even a 100bb cap (effectively 50bb with a straddle) will spend a lot of time playing deeper. The biggest signal in the noise is bigger blinds = bigger variance, so I would expect the dominating factor to just be the fact that there is a straddle. A BTN straddle has weird effects vs an UTG straddle. It makes the game relatively even bigger because now the biggest "blind" has more reason to defend (he is in position), thus opening sizes go up even more. Also, in a loose game, the blinds both call and now 2/5/T BTN becomes T/T/T and plays more like an ante game with big preflop overlay and lots of interested parties.

Last edited by bip!; 10-17-2015 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:39 PM   #11405
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by RobFarha View Post
I would tell them that if them that if all of the below is true

1. I'm not good at poker.
2. I can't manage my finances.
3. I don't like playing a ton of hours.

Probably find a new job... Seems like a very reasonable answer.

If you love poker and want to play a ton of hours, go for it. I'm just saying most of the people who think this way are very new and will reach a burnout point.
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:44 PM   #11406
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hammer poker part time, save up the $$, and then once your passive income is solid... then quit work.

Don't quit to play poker until you don't need to rely on poker IMO
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:49 PM   #11407
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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
If having a 6 figure job can't lead to financial independence, you're doing something wrong. Especially if you're single w/o children.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:53 PM   #11408
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
1000 hours logged? Dude that's only half a year of full time. Put in 10,000 hours (or equivalent #hands online) and you'll start to approach enough experience to know if poker as a life is right for you.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:57 PM   #11409
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
My man, please do not quit your job to play poker. It would be a huge mistake. Poker is not going anywhere. Put it on the back burner and focus on your job plus real estate. Once real estate is humming then quit yer job and then refocus on poker.

What I am saying is rely on poker as a last choice. I have said this a million times - poker is a great part time gig but as a full time deal I am positive you can do better
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:00 PM   #11410
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by bip! View Post
I have heard this debated both ways and really I don't think there is any solid data one way or the other. Easy to figure a $500 stack in 10/20 would certainly have >>> variance than a $500 stack in 1/2. But would a $500 stack in 10/20 have more variance than a $2k stack at 10/20?? Is there an inflection point where variance is at a minimum at like 70bb? Who knows, I am more suspicious that deeper is always higher variance.

However, unless someone always plays short sessions, even a 100bb cap (effectively 50bb with a straddle) will spend a lot of time playing deeper. The biggest signal in the noise is bigger blinds = bigger variance, so I would expect the dominating factor to just be the fact that there is a straddle. A BTN straddle has weird effects vs an UTG straddle. It makes the game relatively even bigger because now the biggest "blind" has more reason to defend (he is in position), thus opening sizes go up even more. Also, in a loose game, the blinds both call and now 2/5/T BTN becomes T/T/T and plays more like an ante game with big preflop overlay and lots of interested parties.
Def think if you're a winner in all lineups more variance with short stacking. With short stacking there are just so few ways to win. Your hands just have to hold. Deeper allows you more ways to take down money's with less volatility.

Again. This assumes you are beating all lineups.

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Old 10-17-2015, 02:01 PM   #11411
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Natamus View Post
1000 hours logged? Dude that's only half a year of full time. Put in 10,000 hours (or equivalent #hands online) and you'll start to approach enough experience to know if poker as a life is right for you.
Why the F would you play 2000 hours/year?!? Part of the appeal of poker is working less than working stiffs. If you're gonna work the same amount as a normal job, take the normal variance free job unless you make significantly more from poker, like 2-3x
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:14 PM   #11412
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
Why the F would you play 2000 hours/year?!? Part of the appeal of poker is working less than working stiffs. If you're gonna work the same amount as a normal job, take the normal variance free job unless you make significantly more from poker, like 2-3x
I played 2150 last year.

Why?

19 yo daughter freshman in college
my personal lifestyle
paying my ex's mortgage

all of these combined kind of motivated me to work my ass off. The ex is selling the house in fact she put it on the market today so next year my motivation to crank out hours has plummeted
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:20 PM   #11413
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If having a 6 figure job can't lead to financial independence, you're doing something wrong. Especially if you're single w/o children.
Financial independence = passive income. Yah I could stay at my company and retire at 62 with a $3 million 401k but that seems like a waste of a life to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bip! View Post
Hammer poker part time, save up the $$, and then once your passive income is solid... then quit work.

Don't quit to play poker until you don't need to rely on poker IMO
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Originally Posted by squid face View Post
My man, please do not quit your job to play poker. It would be a huge mistake. Poker is not going anywhere. Put it on the back burner and focus on your job plus real estate. Once real estate is humming then quit yer job and then refocus on poker.

What I am saying is rely on poker as a last choice. I have said this a million times - poker is a great part time gig but as a full time deal I am positive you can do better
Damn.. this is what everyone always says. Even a guy that left his corporate job to play told me the same thing. Is it really like crossing over a threshold from part time enthusiast to full-time player?

I would be taking a somewhat significant pay cut initially, but is freedom, flexibility and general happiness and well being worth the pay cut?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natamus View Post
1000 hours logged? Dude that's only half a year of full time. Put in 10,000 hours (or equivalent #hands online) and you'll start to approach enough experience to know if poker as a life is right for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
Why the F would you play 2000 hours/year?!? Part of the appeal of poker is working less than working stiffs. If you're gonna work the same amount as a normal job, take the normal variance free job unless you make significantly more from poker, like 2-3x
Yah the general idea would be not to quit my job just to log the same number of hours at the casino. It would be to work less hours, while having more time to devote to passive income streams.

When 2015 is all said and done I will have logged ~2500 hours at my real job and ~850 hours at the poker table. That's 3350 hours of labor "work" with no time devoted to passive income. Just a lot of saving and building up my nut. The pace is unsustainable though - I often go into work getting only 2-3 hours of sleep a night.

I have some investments in play right now and I think if I get to 200k in liquid assets it would make me feel comfortable enough to cut the cord. I wouldn't necessarily be playing to put food on the table, it would still be my side hustle while I am doing my real "work" during the day with real estate.

If ever there is a time to do something like this it's when you're young and single right? I probably couldn't get my exact job back if needed, but I could find another finance gig.
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:21 PM   #11414
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
Completely, certifiably insane. What is the inflection point?
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:22 PM   #11415
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by squid face View Post
My man, please do not quit your job to play poker. It would be a huge mistake. Poker is not going anywhere. Put it on the back burner and focus on your job plus real estate. Once real estate is humming then quit yer job and then refocus on poker.



What I am saying is rely on poker as a last choice. I have said this a million times - poker is a great part time gig but as a full time deal I am positive you can do better

Werd to all of this
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:39 PM   #11416
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Completely, certifiably insane. What is the inflection point?
A sustained winrate > my hourly at my job

Poker confidence is at an all-time high, but I think more importantly I've really worked on my game/table selection and situational awareness over the last 3-4 months whereas the first half of the year was focused mainly on leaks, decision making, etc.
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Old 10-17-2015, 03:45 PM   #11417
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Your winrate and hourly aren't valid because of your small a sample size.

Like I said earlier ~1000 hours is not enough time or hands to get a real idea of your hourly or winrate.

For all we know the last 1000 hours you've been a fish on a massive heater/upswing and you're about to regress to the mean or even worse take an even greater downswing than your heater.

Basing life decisions off 1000 hours of poker is just foolish and naive man
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Old 10-17-2015, 04:16 PM   #11418
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Financial independence = passive income. Yah I could stay at my company and retire at 62 with a $3 million 401k but that seems like a waste of a life to me.
What are you doing with all of the 6 figures you're getting paid through the year?? if you can't build financial independence with a 6 figure job, no spouse, no kids, you have some major life leaks. Playing poker will not change that, it might only exasperate the situation.
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Old 10-17-2015, 05:09 PM   #11419
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).
You are incredibly new and playing part time hours is not the same thing as full time hours.

don't quit your job
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Old 10-17-2015, 05:38 PM   #11420
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What are you doing with all of the 6 figures you're getting paid through the year?? if you can't build financial independence with a 6 figure job, no spouse, no kids, you have some major life leaks. Playing poker will not change that, it might only exasperate the situation.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being ignorant but I am saving most of it. Like I said, between 2500 hours at my job and 850 hours in the poker room, my time to "build" financial independence is extremely limited.
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Old 10-17-2015, 05:41 PM   #11421
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From many of your hands you've posted, I don't think there's a huge chance you'd make it right now as a full time pro.
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Old 10-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #11422
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Financial independence = passive income. Yah I could stay at my company and retire at 62 with a $3 million 401k but that seems like a waste of a life to me.
Yeah because it's impossible to work and have a fulfilling life? lol.

Quote:
Just a lot of saving and building up my nut. The pace is unsustainable though - I often go into work getting only 2-3 hours of sleep a night.
Man, wonder how much you might achieve if you actually were awake enough to excel at your job?

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being ignorant but I am saving most of it. Like I said, between 2500 hours at my job and 850 hours in the poker room, my time to "build" financial independence is extremely limited.
Opportunity costs tho?
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Old 10-17-2015, 06:14 PM   #11423
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JohnnyOnTheSpot I was only using full time work as a reference point to suggest that 1000 hours live poker isn't nearly as big of a number as it may look
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Old 10-17-2015, 06:24 PM   #11424
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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
I think equivocation has occurred and we're arguing two different points.

We desire to make money, we need to work to make it.

But, do we really relish spending a huge volume of hours in a casino atmosphere with the patrons and employees?

The means serves the end here -- many of us don't really care for the means.
But whats the solution, do you think some pros have become too complacent to the point that they never move up in stakes where they wouldnt have to spend so much time in the casino? if you go from 1-2 to 2-5 you d only have to spend half the time in the casino as you did when playing 1-2...BTW spending all day in a casino sounds like a dream to me
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Old 10-17-2015, 06:48 PM   #11425
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Yeah because it's impossible to work and have a fulfilling life? lol.

Man, wonder how much you might achieve if you actually were awake enough to excel at your job?
Without getting all existential here, I just know the corporate world does not suit me for the long-term. Sitting in front of a computer for 10-12 hours a day does not suit my personality and I see work is a means to an end.

I know there are people that enjoy that type of life/grind/whatever but I cannot say I am one of them. Always envisioned taking the entrepreneurial route so I'm just waiting until the right opportunity presents itself. There are a few items on my checklist I would have to cross off first before feeling comfortable with the decision, so realistically it's at least 6-12 months off still.

Will keep thinking on it and putting in the hours.

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Opportunity costs tho?
Whatcha mean?
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