You would be shocked at the amount of people I have turned down that have asked me for coaching.

I don't believe anyone's winrate (including my own), to be much over 12bb/hr in any sort of reasonable poker environment.

As far as people "primarily trying to grind out small stakes online", there's many other reasons for people wanting to do other things than spend 1800hr a year inside a miserable casino. So to answer that question, even if my winrate actually was 20bb/hr, no, I would not spend anywhere near 1800hr/yr inside a casino. The amount of people on 2+2 that don't understand such a basic concept absolutely baffles me.

Convenience/sanity/overall happiness being #1 on my personal list. Not everything is about maximizing every single penny you could possible make at the expense of yourself. There's a reason the angry people are angry and the happy people are happy. Don't get sucked into the poker bubble where your entire life revolves around poker.

Next time you walk into a poker room, stand up and look around. It's not a great sight.

edit: did not realize what a ****storm posting a couple of pictures would cause and haven't posted a winrate picture in several years, mostly for this exact reason. I apologize for my desire to be constantly pat on the back, or to have my ego stroked.

On variance and how it actually works - it's pretty damn unlikely (but Rob OMG not impossible I know this guy omg) to have a sample of 300hours where you win 10bb+ plus and to be a losing player. Even less likely if you can objectively be honest with yourself and not forget all the times you ran above EV, like when you win a pot with AA against AK all-in pre. (not a typo)

^ people don't get why you wouldnt want to spend 1800 hours/year inside casinos because when you are doing well, no one is going to want to work more than they have to. When someone is speaking from the perspective of someone playing 1800 hours at say, 3bbs/hour and struggling to make living expenses, they obviously think you are crazy for not playing 1800 hours if you could make way more at 20bbs/hour for the same amount of work.

In other words, if your hourly has actually been 3bb/hour, and 1800 hours is what it takes to make your living expenses, how CAN you not be playing more? Kind of seems like a thinly veiled brag there and basically saying you don't understand why people making less has to work more, but you already know that.

If you were like 45 and unemployable I would get behind this.

But if someone is young and thinks they're capable enough to crush for lol 20bb hr , they would be smart enough to know what a miserable, scummy place the gambling world is.

And how important it would be to just get the amount of money they need to do something awesome with their lives and get the **** out.

Which means they would take a good crack at it at least for a couple years try and put in some impressive volume.

--

But you're right though. I have no idea what your goals are. Everyone's tastes are different.

With all the stuff you say about how miserable this industry is (I agree with you) I'm surprised you apparently don't mind spending more time in this industry than you would if you planned a little better.

The people that don't see a problem spending that much time in a casino are usually:

1) young and idealistic wanna be pros (who haven't actually experienced 1000s of hrs yet)
2) degens who just love being in and around action

There's things that are a lot more important to being a successful poker player than being good at poker. Winrates are a gigantic pissing contest. Just to put this in perspective based on my own real life experiences -

My first year or so in Vegas I absolutely crushed it. Everything, volume , hourly, focus, happiness, etc. It was a brand new environment for me and everything was exciting, fun etc. This is after playing a few years at Foxwoods.

I did not pocket that much cash because despite me being in the poker room and making a lot of money due to hourly and hours, I spent like an absolute idiot. I'm fortunate I never hit the wall so in that sense I do appreciate the fact that I "ran good". I made massive car payments that ate up a big chunk, tons of partying, ate out every meal, other stuff, whatever.

So even though by this volume + hourly metric that people ITT seem to harp over and over, I didn't really "make" a bunch of money because I spent like an idiot. I definitely do not regret this because I had an awesome time as a bright eyed young man in Las Vegas, but this is a whole other (futile) discussion as to whether I should regret this or not.

I just want to point out that even though now I don't play a ton of hours, I have a nice nest egg from saving/investing/managing myself like a 25 year old (semi) adult, rather than a 22 year old kid spending money like crazy.

So even if someone's winrate isn't spectacular, you can more than managably make up for this lack of poker skill in other areas. There are tons of boring nits in Vegas that fit this description perfectly. They basically suck at the technical aspect of poker, but they save, play a decent amount and save. They are good "poker managers", but not good poker players. When I say "boring nit", that isn't even really meant to be fully derogatory, it's just them surviving, which is commendable when your only true income comes from poker.

I don't really feel like discussing all my own personal finances, but I'm getting there at a fine pace, believe me. Mostly because I put in hours when I needed to.

In regards to planning, early 20s kid that keep most their net worth on them in cash make poor decisions, what can I say. When I was 21 or 22 the last thing I was thinking about was my annual IRA % return. Kids gonna be kids and that's perfectly fine.

This is as accurate as a post as I've read in this thread.

Whenever I see the "Play more hours!" vs "Play less hours!" debate - the idealistic newbies and degens are on the play more hours side, the experienced professionals with longevity are on the other side.

Marathon. Not sprint.

How much is "that much time"? I think pros should be spending a sufficient amount of time working, and I'm in neither of your categories.

Yah if yer a pro its pretty much yer job to play mucho poker

You are still only saying you are where you are because you play way better/run way better and have good financial sense though.

I know you are, but the fact that all these stars happened to align for YOU doesn't address my point of how exactly someone else is supposed to make a decent living playing minimum hours in order to pursue life happiness, when they don't play/run as good and/or have as good as a financial sense as you? I'm just saying that we shouldn't be so quick to judge.

I would tell them that if them that if all of the below is true

1. I'm not good at poker.
2. I can't manage my finances.
3. I don't like playing a ton of hours.

Probably find a new job... Seems like a very reasonable answer.

If you love poker and want to play a ton of hours, go for it. I'm just saying most of the people who think this way are very new and will reach a burnout point.

It's pretty straightforward, just punish capped ranges and play any two ip. And suited Ax goes way up in value. Raise folding is the biggest problem, ime.

I think rob made a good point,

im absolutely horrible at poker but have managed to slowly increase my standard of living by playing primarily 1/2-1/3NL fulltime the past 2 years

Im able to actually do this by basically just being a great money manager.

But if only 1 or 2 is true, then they can compensate by playing longer hours. Most people fall between the extremes of having all 3 things and having none of the 3 things, so it's not a good example to use either extreme.

Anyways, how many hours exactly do you consider reasonable anyways? That's probably all we are arguing here because I doubt anyone (myself included) would think playing 2k+ hours a year is reasonable/healthy, but no one would ever say, the less hours you put in poker the better!

Another thing is that more experienced players usually work less because they have done most of their work earlier so there is less studying to do, or that they are playing higher so they don't need to play as much to maintain their lifestyle.

no arguments from me

I think 25-30hrs a week is on the reasonable low end. With lots of weeks where you play less and not too many where you play more.

I take issue with the people who say you "need" 40hrs every week. If that's your predicament then something has gone terrible wrong.

No shame in playing part-time to figure out your life, then adjust your poker schedule accordingly.

If you're already a poker pro, you should never "need" to play for purposes of paying the rent or my goodness being able to eat or other basic stuff like that.

Second point is very valid and not something I considered. More experienced players have already done the work earlier.

If I'm capable of saving money, everyone is.

I think equivocation has occurred and we're arguing two different points.

We desire to make money, we need to work to make it.

But, do we really relish spending a huge volume of hours in a casino atmosphere with the patrons and employees?

The means serves the end here -- many of us don't really care for the means.

How much does a Mississippi straddle change the variance in a game?

It more than double the stakes. If the blinds call a lot, then it is nearly 3x the game.

I dont know how to maf

but I guess what im asking is:

Is it more common to experience larger swings in a 100bb cap game that allows MS straddle?

Would that also mean that the StDev would be higher?

Yes - it would be swingier.. the cap restricts it somewhat, but that is no doubt a bigger game now

Ever since the comment that the thread was getting bad, the thread has actually gotten good

Thanks Rob, Snowball and others for the insightful posts as of late

$6k for expenses kept in separate checking account.
$10k set aside for two or three losing months
$10k to play with during the month

This is what I would use to play 5/T. I would keep $15k on the side for 2/5 if you go broke at higher levels and want to grind it back up

Assuming the buyin doesn't change it won't the change the game that much at all

Wouldn't the short stack nature up the variance, not lessen it? Maybe wrong, but I always think short stackers have higher variance because they're going to showdown much more often.

I have heard this debated both ways and really I don't think there is any solid data one way or the other. Easy to figure a $500 stack in 10/20 would certainly have >>> variance than a $500 stack in 1/2. But would a $500 stack in 10/20 have more variance than a $2k stack at 10/20?? Is there an inflection point where variance is at a minimum at like 70bb? Who knows, I am more suspicious that deeper is always higher variance.

However, unless someone always plays short sessions, even a 100bb cap (effectively 50bb with a straddle) will spend a lot of time playing deeper. The biggest signal in the noise is bigger blinds = bigger variance, so I would expect the dominating factor to just be the fact that there is a straddle. A BTN straddle has weird effects vs an UTG straddle. It makes the game relatively even bigger because now the biggest "blind" has more reason to defend (he is in position), thus opening sizes go up even more. Also, in a loose game, the blinds both call and now 2/5/T BTN becomes T/T/T and plays more like an ante game with big preflop overlay and lots of interested parties.

How new is new? I've got about 1000 hours logged and am starting to consider quitting my job to play. Most people would say I am insane (6 figure job, great benefits) but the hours are long and it's kind of soul crushing. I want to work for myself some day (real estate), but between my job and poker I have little time for anything else right now.

Poker gets me excited because a) I enjoy it and b) I think it can lead to financial independence. My job? Not so much. Been saving a lot over the last two years. Single, no kids so small monthly nut but I'm reaching an inflection point where I need to decide if it's worth it.

I'm a bit of a night owl anyway so I think playing at night and working on my business during the day would actually work for me. But interested in hearing from others that left the corporate world behind them to play (if they even exist).

Hammer poker part time, save up the $$, and then once your passive income is solid... then quit work.

Don't quit to play poker until you don't need to rely on poker IMO