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Old 09-27-2015, 01:04 AM   #11101
meale
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by letzplayHU View Post
I'm about to unsubscribe from this thread because it's bad for the mental game and very rarely contributes anything of substance. If you follow what's being said here, basically you never will know if you're a winner, regardless of your win-rate or hours played live.

How does it help anyone who puts thousands of hours into the game with 5-15bb/hr win rates to tell themselves they could just as well be fish?

There's the occasional strategy post in here, which is nice, last one I read was Bip's post about a table line up, and how sharks go from targeting whales to mediocre weak passives to tag-fish, but there's hundreds of negative posts for every positive one that basically says,

"No, you could just be on a heater".... which translates to, "You just suck".

Imagine if you put a sticky note on your bathroom mirror, and everyday you got up and read it aloud, and what it said was, "Don't think my success means anything, I could just as probably be on a heater", "Don't think my success means anything, I could just as probably be on a heater", ... , "Don't think my success means anything, I could just as probably be on a heater".

Imagine reading that to yourself everyday for years... That's what reading this thread is like.

It's getting to the point, that the only empowering posts in this forum are hand analysis posts; which is unfortunate because I would love to just chat up with fellow poker players and feel good about chatting it up with fellow poker players. Chatting it up with an arbitrary 2p2 posters makes me feel unconfident and ****ty, which of course takes me out of the zone.

I've made a few friends here who I skype with daily and we help each other, but still too few for how many of us partake in this community.
Not sure why you're sooking.

Anyone who puts in thousands of hours w a 5-15bb/hr winrate shouldn't care what other people tell them. They're a winner. They might be a fish in a different game but it's irrelevant if they're not going to play it.

People saying other people could easily be fish on heaters is for the guys who haven't logged thousands of hours.

You should absolutely not put much weighting on ANY results before you get a reasonable sample size. Dude winning at 20bb/hr after 200 hours IS probably A FISH if he's losing after 3000 hours.

Also, this thread isn't for empowerment or "feel good" posts. If you're so emotionally fragile that "chatting" it up with people who speak the truth, even if they dont tell you you're a 10bb/hr crusher just coz ur on 2p2, takes you "out of the zone", then you don't have the resilience needed to win in poker.
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:10 AM   #11102
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

To get some conversation going here I have a question:

For those of you who have logged considerable hours in Vegas AND other locations, what differences in WR have you had at the various stakes and would you care to post your data?
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:14 AM   #11103
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Originally Posted by meale View Post
Not sure why you're sooking.

Anyone who puts in thousands of hours w a 5-15bb/hr winrate shouldn't care what other people tell them. They're a winner. They might be a fish in a different game but it's irrelevant if they're not going to play it.

People saying other people could easily be fish on heaters is for the guys who haven't logged thousands of hours.

You should absolutely not put much weighting on ANY results before you get a reasonable sample size. Dude winning at 20bb/hr after 200 hours IS probably A FISH if he's losing after 3000 hours.

Also, this thread isn't for empowerment or "feel good" posts. If you're so emotionally fragile that "chatting" it up with people who speak the truth, even if they dont tell you you're a 10bb/hr crusher just coz ur on 2p2, takes you "out of the zone", then you don't have the resilience needed to win in poker.
Someone got too many participation trophies growing up me thinks.
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Old 09-27-2015, 01:54 AM   #11104
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I take it more as the guy who is break even after 200 hours shouldn't sweat all the reports of crushing - things can swing the other way rapidly.

Certainly don't want to say that 200 hours means nothing... because 2k hours has to be made of 200 hour stretches of something.

Just don't sweat results too much too early
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:02 AM   #11105
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I take it more as the guy who is break even after 200 hours shouldn't sweat all the reports of crushing - things can swing the other way rapidly.

Certainly don't want to say that 200 hours means nothing... because 2k hours has to be made of 200 hour stretches of something.

Just don't sweat results too much too early
Yeah, exactly. 200 hours is actually not a horrible sample if you're playing a relatively low variance style too.

All I'm saying is, there are too many people sun running for 100-200 hours, saying LLSNL is EZ crushable for 10bb/hr when in actuality, it's close to impossible to sustain that.

I think, actually, if you're a very good player (a lot better than most of the regs in this forum), AND have a room that doesn't rake an arm and leg AND has multiple tables running allowing you to select decent games, AND allows deep buyins 10bb/hr is reasonable at 2/5. But this is a very small % of casinos and an even smaller % of regs.
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:10 AM   #11106
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I'm sorry but saying you're "pretty sure" there are "multiple" crushers itt who have >2k hours @10bb/hr is just continuing the delusion this forum is under.

They either don't exist on this forum, or do and fabricate their results in some way but I would think that's unlikely. My suspicion is that there is just none left with that kind of WR after 2k hours because 40bb/100 in ANY game of poker is impossible.
You are someone who has failed multiple times at online poker and you also live in Brisbane where the live scene is almost non existent. Who made you the expert on live poker?

Winning at these rates is possible even in casinos with obscene rakes simply because there are almost no good players in LLSNL. Even most of the regs are terrible.
But it is not easy
You need to sit through hours of card deadness while still making accurate reads
You need to not spew while still picking up the pots that no one else wants
You need to maximise value while at the same time making some hero folds and avoiding certain "cooler" type situations because 90% of the player pool is basically playing their hand face up and take the same lines with the nuts time and time again.
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:13 AM   #11107
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meale, my response to your last paragraph is basically that if you're a pro, why would you ever live where those conditions don't exist? Unless you have family needs, I really don't know why anyone aspiring to make 10+bb/hr would attempt it in places where it is significantly tougher to do so. There are great games available in places. I mainly play PLO live now because 10bb/hr is much, much easier than in NLHE. It's attainable in NLHE in the room I play, but it's not the easiest thing in the world.

10bb/hr isn't super tough for a good player who doesn't handicap themselves. If you're playing in a bad room, overrate your own ability, you're not going to have much fun. My friends who are poker pros travel constantly. Florida, Vegas, Chicago, Montreal, home games and wherever there are big tournaments. You find the good games. This is why they have great win rates. You could just play in your own room and exploit the regs there, but the amount you can improve your win rate from that alone is limited.

Last edited by aoFrantic; 09-27-2015 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:21 AM   #11108
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

@ meale: Thats a good point about low variance poker. I think I fit into this category. Most of the posts I put in this forumn are of situations where I'm stepping into the highest variance situations I'll tolerate. I'd call myself a Semi Aggressive Tight player. Somewhere between NIT and TAG. But when the entire table is NIT or super loose passive, this strategy has been just the Tops so far.

@ Leo: I've noticed that it takes time, patience, and perseverance. As I've stated before, I'll log 10+ hours sessions where after 5 hours I'm even, but then end the session up 1000. This has been the case 6 times out of 12 10+ hours sessions I have. Others its a slow grind for 6 hours, while I've also won 1200 in 2.5 hour, and lost 600 in 3 hours.

I tried online again today... I have no idea whats going on anymore in that game. I am so dependent upon reads now, its amazing.
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Old 09-27-2015, 02:29 AM   #11109
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
I think, actually, if you're a very good player (a lot better than most of the regs in this forum), AND have a room that doesn't rake an arm and leg AND has multiple tables running allowing you to select decent games, AND allows deep buyins 10bb/hr is reasonable at 2/5. But this is a very small % of casinos and an even smaller % of regs.
Now this I'll agree with. I never said 10BB/hr is "standard" or easy, just that it's possible. I def think it's crushing, and there are fewer crushers out there than claimed.
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Old 09-27-2015, 06:04 AM   #11110
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Someone got too many participation trophies growing up me thinks.
They told us to stop talking about Dwight Howard.
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Old 09-27-2015, 06:54 AM   #11111
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I don't have a huge sample size as online is a significantly better option than Treasury; but 10bb/hr is perfectly reasonable at 2/4 in Brisbane even with the $200-$250 raked per hour.
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Old 09-27-2015, 08:14 AM   #11112
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Originally Posted by TobiasReiper View Post
To get some conversation going here I have a question:

For those of you who have logged considerable hours in Vegas AND other locations, what differences in WR have you had at the various stakes and would you care to post your data?
Casinos have lowest wr. Home games best. But u need that premium for home games to compensate your risk. Ie politics. Robbery. Higher rake. Getting banned. Police. Etc.

My hourly expectation is probably 20-30 percent greater at home games.

Hard to really tell cause vast majority of my 4k live hours is home game.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using 2+2 Forums
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Old 09-27-2015, 12:54 PM   #11113
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by letzplayHU View Post
I'm about to unsubscribe from this thread because it's bad for the mental game and very rarely contributes anything of substance. If you follow what's being said here, basically you never will know if you're a winner, regardless of your win-rate or hours played live.

How does it help anyone who puts thousands of hours into the game with 5-15bb/hr win rates to tell themselves they could just as well be fish?

There's the occasional strategy post in here, which is nice, last one I read was Bip's post about a table line up, and how sharks go from targeting whales to mediocre weak passives to tag-fish, but there's hundreds of negative posts for every positive one that basically says,

"No, you could just be on a heater".... which translates to, "You just suck".

Imagine if you put a sticky note on your bathroom mirror, and everyday you got up and read it aloud, and what it said was, "Don't think my success means anything, I could just as probably be on a heater", "Don't think my success means anything, I could just as probably be on a heater", ... , "Don't think my success means anything, I could just as probably be on a heater".

Imagine reading that to yourself everyday for years... That's what reading this thread is like.

It's getting to the point, that the only empowering posts in this forum are hand analysis posts; which is unfortunate because I would love to just chat up with fellow poker players and feel good about chatting it up with fellow poker players. Chatting it up with an arbitrary 2p2 posters makes me feel unconfident and ****ty, which of course takes me out of the zone.

I've made a few friends here who I skype with daily and we help each other, but still too few for how many of us partake in this community.
here is how my man.

When I sit at the table I can literally taste my edge. I see people doing silly stuff that I would never do. Last night for example this dude limped 45o from UTG and called my iso raise to 25. This is obv neg ev for him. Another clown defended his sb from an ep open to 20 with 24o

I am also applying pressure in the correct spots. My opponents however tend to do the opposite. They will do aggro crap at the most un opportune times - ie spaz shove when they have no fold equity v a better hand.

The list goes on and on. If you sit at the table and are able to formulate a decent game plan against your opponents that makes good sense you are def on your way to becoming a solid winning player.

I have a very deep bag of tricks and am able to adjust to my opponents long before they even think about what I am up to. I have worked damn hard to become a 10+bb/hr winner...and as mr Farha stated this is NOT the benchmark of a good player - dudes like me are few and very far between. I am NOT a rock star. I am a bar band that goes in every night and plays my set of tunes quite well. I have never written a great song. I know what I am capable of doing and stick to it

I also agree with rob F - I think winning 5-6bb/hr is A OK...I know several vegas regs who win just that and they are solid poker players who I totally respect
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Old 09-27-2015, 06:27 PM   #11114
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Originally Posted by TobiasReiper View Post
For those of you who have logged considerable hours in Vegas AND other locations, what differences in WR have you had at the various stakes and would you care to post your data?
Of the people who have done this most of them probably played different locales at different times. So the time difference is going to be a major variable. Unless it's a guy who plays LA/LV, i.e. But the most likely case is someone playing a lot, moving, and playing a lot years later.
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Old 09-27-2015, 11:32 PM   #11115
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here is how my man.

When I sit at the table I can literally taste my edge.

This exactly.

I have less than 400 hours of live play but I know beyond a doubt that I am a crusher. I radiate supreme confidence which makes weaker minded regs fear playing against me. I am 100% focused in every hand that is played. I catch every subtle detail in betsizing, physical tells, and emotions. When it is my turn to act I am 100% aware of and in control of my body and emotions. I do not care about money or results. I do not allow my mind to wander thus I do not get bored. I am always actively looking for ways to exploit players in every hand they play.

When I see other regs they are bored out of their minds. They don't pay attention to the game. They listen to music, watch sports, they have their attention on their phones or tablets. They do not want to be there grinding but they stay anyway. I will give them credit for having some discipline and waiting for good hands but they fail to maximize value with them. They fail to fold the 2nd nuts vs the obvious nuts. They fail to make good bluffs. They make bad bluffs. They are over aggressive vs the wrong opponents in the wrong situations. They become hot headed and play with to much emotion. They have no self awareness. They cannot play objectively. Most of these leaks can be remedied by paying ATTENTION to the game. But most people will not make that effort.

I am usually a troll and don't contribute poker advice to any thread but here is a tip for those that play zombie/robotic poker and are marginal winners.

The most important thing to work on besides your poker game if you want to become a live crusher is your attention/concentration. If you can maintain the 'zone' at the tables your game will change 100%. PM me if you have any questions on how to do this. It will be very hard are first and you will have to make sacrifices.
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:25 AM   #11116
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The last few pages of this thread have turned into a Stuart Smally skit.
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:33 AM   #11117
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mreps, were you an athlete growing up? Reason I ask is I played tons of sports growing up and consider myself a pretty competitive person and I consider maintaining your "A" game akin to being in the zone for sports, maintaining your focus, discipline, etc.

I think I play my "A" game more often than not and usually just leave when I notice myself devolving to B or more rarely a horrible C game. I'm sometimes guilty of messing around on my phone (ie: like right now while at the table), but I feel one of my better poker edges is just paying better attention than my opponents, stealing those 5-10 BB pots that are up for grabs preflop due to limping, straddling etc.
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Old 09-28-2015, 12:45 AM   #11118
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I wrestled for 6 years but I do not attribute my willpower or my ability to hold attention to that. My main reason for my focus is because I am cultivating a mind for meditation. I make an effort to conserve energy and expanding awareness within and without 24 hours a day.
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Old 09-28-2015, 02:36 AM   #11119
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Paying close attention is really difficult at first. Good news is that you start to pick up on more and more without any effort as time goes on. Just takes time and effort to get to the point where you automatically pick up on most of the important stuff.
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:37 AM   #11120
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Killing it
this graph looks like the low stakes version of Isildur's graph..what happened between the hrs of 150-200? spew and run bad?
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:45 AM   #11121
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bip! is very aggressive and mostly plays mid-stakes PLO these days. I think he tends to overestimate FE at LLSNL.
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:46 AM   #11122
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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this graph looks like the low stakes version of Isildur's graph..what happened between the hrs of 150-200? spew and run bad?
1/3NL exclusively during that time, IMO.
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Old 09-28-2015, 10:02 AM   #11123
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this graph looks like the low stakes version of Isildur's graph..what happened between the hrs of 150-200? spew and run bad?


Quote:
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bip! is very aggressive and mostly plays mid-stakes PLO these days. I think he tends to overestimate FE at LLSNL.

^that pretty much sums it up. I sincerely try to win, but I can't lay off the bluffs.

The last 50 hours is probably over the course of > 1 year. It is mostly like 30-60 minute sessions while I wait for a PLO seat. The first section of the graph is when I was playing 2/5 regularly and running very hot which led me to moving up to other games (5/T NL and PLO).
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Old 09-28-2015, 10:11 AM   #11124
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I wrestled for 6 years but I do not attribute my willpower or my ability to hold attention to that. My main reason for my focus is because I am cultivating a mind for meditation. I make an effort to conserve energy and expanding awareness within and without 24 hours a day.

Did you have any tackles for losses?
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Old 09-28-2015, 11:54 AM   #11125
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Ugh, I got a few more PMs than expected. I guess I'm kinda obligated to answer them now. I'll get something typed up later today as a general guide then I'll answer individual questions after. If anyone else is interested in my 'how to crush poker for 10bb+ an hour its only $99.97.

Just send me a pm.
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