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Old 09-13-2015, 01:52 PM   #10451
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker View Post
Probably the single biggest difference between live and online is that players do not like to fold hands in live poker. Thus, players play more hands preflop (major leak), and are less likely to fold them when they hit a piece. This likely accounts for much of the differences in winrates.
positional awareness is another huge one

Have played with MANY "good live" players who have terrible positional awareness
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Old 09-13-2015, 01:54 PM   #10452
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In summation, live players are just terrible lol
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Old 09-13-2015, 02:35 PM   #10453
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Do you think they will always be terrible?
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Old 09-13-2015, 02:50 PM   #10454
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Do you think they will always be terrible?
Of course. Being good at poker requires above average intelligence, above average discipline, above average mental stamina and study away from the table.

That last is the killer. Nobody does serious homework for their hobby unless it is their passion.
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Old 09-13-2015, 02:57 PM   #10455
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

True dat. So true.
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Old 09-13-2015, 03:16 PM   #10456
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

There is a lot of reasons in the ole live vs online debate... but the overwhelming reason why the games are dramatically different is multi-tabling.
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Old 09-13-2015, 08:59 PM   #10457
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Yes multitabling and hands seen per hour are by far the biggest differences.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:44 AM   #10458
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QdM
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Old 09-14-2015, 04:59 AM   #10459
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I want some clarification of 2/4 live FR winrates for 2015. Games are mostly pretty passive/limpy and cally, people make plenty of calling mistakes, a couple pros every so often and some aggressive Iso/3bb heavy games.

My research tells me a good pro can make 10bb/hr but I have no idea how this can be even slightly reasonable over a converged sample. If you play 25-30 hands per hour (10 handed game), this means we're looking at 30-40bb/100? With the high rake, surely there's no way this is possible. AFAIK the best possible online 2NL FR winrate is around 15-20bb/100 so how is it possible people are saying 30-40bb/100 is attainable live with the increased rake?

Can someone offer a reasonable winrate for a very solid 2/4 or 2/5 reg in today's live game?
I've never played a game in Australia that I didn't think could be beaten for way more than 10bb an hour by a really good player

Shame I'm not a really good player
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:17 AM   #10460
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

People make way too much of live rake. Yes it is boatloads of money. But it's self-correcting in a way I don't really understand. Seems without exception the highest raked games are the softest. As long as a game is beatable -- and not all are -- just go get it.
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:20 AM   #10461
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I figure I've paid about half of my net winnings lifetime in rake, tips, jackpot drops. As in if rake didn't exist I'd have 50% more. I don't think you can beat that online these days unless you are a results and volume crusher.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:11 AM   #10462
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Uh what was the rake structure of the game you played in?

Online has rb and multitabling it's not really the same.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:35 AM   #10463
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
I figure I've paid about half of my net winnings lifetime in rake, tips, jackpot drops. As in if rake didn't exist I'd have 50% more. I don't think you can beat that online these days unless you are a results and volume crusher.
Well, this is true because you could win 6 pots with a $60 profit each & lose 6 with a $60 investment each & you're out the rake + tip for the 6 you won.

I've paid out ~15.6% of my profit in tips to the dealer & you can bet your ass I don't tip $15 on a $100 profit pot.

I think I'm very tight with my tips. They won't see a $2 tip unless my profit is ~$150+

The best thing that could have ever happened was that my dog ate my phone & I had to get a new one in Feb 2015 & bought a new session logger with a tip tracker built in.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:54 AM   #10464
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Finally hit 100 hours at 2/5 and here's the stats

Profit: $3,610
Hours: 100.8
Hourly: $35.8
Sessions: 21
Biggest win: +$3030
Biggest loss: -$1680
Sessions won: 11 (52%)
Sessions lost: 10 (48%)
St.Dev: $1,143

Not sure what this means other than the sample size is trivial and the 2/5 swings are insane. Think I ran far below EV for the stretch but who knows

Last edited by johnnyBuz; 09-14-2015 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:06 AM   #10465
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

100 hrs is not significant but it's definitely good to win
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:08 AM   #10466
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Finally hit 100 hours at 2/5 and here's the stats

Profit: $3,610
Hours: 100.8
Hourly: $35.8
Sessions: 21
Biggest win: +$3030
Biggest loss: -$1680
Sessions won: 11 (52%)
Sessions lost: 10 (48%)
St.Dev: $1,143

Not sure what this means other than the sample size is trivial and the 2/5 swings are insane. Think I ran far below EV for the stretch but who knows
You went through an exceptionally swingy stretch bases on that SD. A normal SD will be under 100 bb an hour. It will likely be as low as 60 or 70 if you aren't super aggro. That's basically the only thing you can glean from a sample that small.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:10 AM   #10467
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:14 PM   #10468
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Finally hit 100 hours at 2/5 and here's the stats

Profit: $3,610
Hours: 100.8
Hourly: $35.8
Sessions: 21
Biggest win: +$3030
Biggest loss: -$1680
Sessions won: 11 (52%)
Sessions lost: 10 (48%)
St.Dev: $1,143

Not sure what this means other than the sample size is trivial and the 2/5 swings are insane. Think I ran far below EV for the stretch but who knows
Is that stdv hourly or by session?
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:23 PM   #10469
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Is that stdv hourly or by session?
By session

The hourly StDev was: $292.1
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Old 09-14-2015, 12:55 PM   #10470
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The entire dynamic of live poker is drastically changed by how wide people peel pre, because it causes people to raise lighter (knowing people will call with dominated ranges), it causes people to double barrell more frequently since people are peeling the flop with any piece, and it causes people to 3bet lighter (knowing people are opening lighter), which causes etc. etc. etc.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:00 PM   #10471
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
The entire dynamic of live poker is drastically changed by how wide people peel pre, because it causes people to raise lighter (knowing people will call with dominated ranges),
Not really. Majority of players simply don't raise light. Those who do aren't raising lighter because they believe people are calling lighter; they raise lighter because they like their cards.

Quote:
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it causes people to double barrell more frequently since people are peeling the flop with any piece,
No one is double barreling light in LLSNL, period.

Best thing anyone can do is removing this thought in the head.

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
and it causes people to 3bet lighter (knowing people are opening lighter), which causes etc. etc. etc.
You are making some very false assumptions of LLSNL pool because you are putting others in your own shoes.

It has been argued many times in the past and it is not the most profitable way of playing poker.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:04 PM   #10472
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Richard I didn't mean it that literally. I'm just giving examples of why the game-flow in any given live table is going to be inherently different from an online table. Not saying each applies, or that you should assume they apply every time you sit down.
And also it should be noted that all of those things happen are what happens between the regs at the table, obviously the weaker players keep playing their leak-heavy game. If none of those things are happening then great, your table has no good regs so you're fine anyway.

Do you guys keep track of tipping? I haven't been recording it at all, but I think I probably should be. I would tip fairly often the last couple months, however as I realized that even tipping a few hands an hour adds up a lot, I've been tipping much less frequently.

Last edited by YGOchamp; 09-14-2015 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:22 PM   #10473
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Multi-tabling and the fact that you don't have to travel are pretty much the only differences between the two types that matter.

If the best pros can play in all the rooms in Vegas at the same time, tourists and amateurs will run out of money so quick that WSOP will cease to exist .
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:34 PM   #10474
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You went through an exceptionally swingy stretch bases on that SD. A normal SD will be under 100 bb an hour. It will likely be as low as 60 or 70 if you aren't super aggro. That's basically the only thing you can glean from a sample that small.
My SD/hr is $355 after 1500 hours of 1/2.

edit: I try to mostly tip $1 at the push, rather than when I win a pot.

Last edited by AllJackedUp; 09-14-2015 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 02:51 PM   #10475
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Hands per hour while kind of related to multi table also changes the games a lot. A fish one tabling online will play less **** hands than he will live. A fish playing a zoom or similarly structured game will play even fewer poor starting hands.
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