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Old 09-08-2015, 02:28 PM   #10351
y0l0Theory
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
When people seat change to my left, I seat change to their left to see if they do it again...but only because they are regs. Just letting them know I know what's going on there.
some regs do this all the time

the constant jumping seats is annoying and bad for the game

i always tell good players i respect to just sit across from me
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:29 PM   #10352
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Usually people don't want to acknowledge that I am a good player (because I am a douche, ldo), so they won't purposely get position on me.
Depends on one's definition of "good"
1. well-behaved. I doubt it!
2. kind, beneficent, or friendly: really stretchin' here...
3. cheerful; optimistic; amiable: no, that doesn't fit here either.
4. competent; satisfactory........yeah, that fits!
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:31 PM   #10353
wj94
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by y0l0Theory View Post
some regs do this all the time

the constant jumping seats is annoying and bad for the game

i always tell good players i respect to just sit across from me
It happens infrequently enough that nobody cares. Yes, doing it all the time would be annoying. Table change please...
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:34 PM   #10354
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

For this reason, I actually like to sit to the right of a tight player. They tend to stay longer and you basically get two buttons. There's an OMC at my room who plays super predictably and stays for hours and hours. I always try to get on his right, and then I don't need to change seats for the rest of the session.
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:37 PM   #10355
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Some backwards thinking itt and I see it at the casinos all the time as well.

I love it when a reg moves to my left, thanks for giving me better position vs the fish buddy.
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:59 PM   #10356
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I am probably in the minority here, but I always felt that seat position (with respect to fish, nits, lags, tags, whatever) contributes so little to winrate that it's not worth the hassle. If you play well, you're going to get the money either way. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:06 PM   #10357
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I am probably in the minority here, but I always felt that seat position (with respect to fish, nits, lags, tags, whatever) contributes so little to winrate that it's not worth the hassle. If you play well, you're going to get the money either way. Maybe I'm wrong though.
I would argue it's the most important thing. Different game flow/dynamics warrant different positioning.

If you've ever felt like the game was EZ-MODE it's probably because you had superior position for the dynamic taking place on the table without even realizing it.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:14 PM   #10358
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Originally Posted by Aves2 View Post
I am probably in the minority here, but I always felt that seat position (with respect to fish, nits, lags, tags, whatever) contributes so little to winrate that it's not worth the hassle. If you play well, you're going to get the money either way. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Not maybe, very wrong.

Position is everything in poker.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:25 PM   #10359
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About how much extra bb/hour could a player gain by seat changing (like maybe once per hour max) rather than that same person just staying put the whole night?
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:29 PM   #10360
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Originally Posted by Aves2 View Post
About how much extra bb/hour could a player gain by seat changing (like maybe once per hour max) rather than that same person just staying put the whole night?
That's obviously an impossible question to answer.

However, if you don't think position matters, you have some giant leaks.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:34 PM   #10361
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

"I couldn't beat my grandmother if she had position on me."

- Phil Ivey
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Old 09-08-2015, 06:52 PM   #10362
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That's obviously an impossible question to answer.

However, if you don't think position matters, you have some giant leaks.
Just to be clear, we are talking about "relative" position, i.e. basically choosing which seat to take at the table. Obviously being in position in a hand (i.e. being on the button is a huge advantage).

I guess as a thought experiment, say there was a table with 3 fish in Seats 2,3,4. Seat 5 is open. And then there are 3 good LAGs in Seats 6,7,8. (Seat 1 and 9 are open as well). Which seat would everyone pick to sit down at?

In my mind, if you were to sit in Seat 5 then any hands involved with the fish you will be huge positive EV, but then any hands involved with the LAGs you are say medium negative EV. If you were to sit in Seat 1 or 9 you will probably be small positive EV in hands with either the fish or the LAGs.

That is obviously a very rough approximation, but I guess my point is that there are advantages and disadvantages for either spot. If the difference is say <0.5bb/hour at choosing Seat 5 over Seat 1 or 9, I might be inclined to just stay put since as others have pointed out, constant seat changing creates a predatory atmosphere, not to mention slows down the game. If the difference is like 2bb/hour or more (which it could be, I have no idea), then I could see the argument for seat changing.

I hope I am not coming off as argumentative, as I am genuinely curious as to what people's thoughts are.

Last edited by Aves2; 09-08-2015 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 09-08-2015, 06:58 PM   #10363
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You can set up a table where there is no premium seat - and you can set up a table where there are clear premium seats.

Nits to your left, action to your right is worth many many bbs/hr.

If you mix up the table and spread the action players out, then there is not much difference in seats.

However, if you are very deep with another player, being in position on them the majority of hands is a big big deal.
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:10 PM   #10364
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Originally Posted by Aves2 View Post
Just to be clear, we are talking about "relative" position, i.e. basically choosing which seat to take at the table. Obviously being in position in a hand (i.e. being on the button is a huge advantage).

I guess as a thought experiment, say there was a table with 3 fish in Seats 2,3,4. Seat 5 is open. And then there are 3 good LAGs in Seats 6,7,8. (Seat 1 and 9 are open as well). Which seat would everyone pick to sit down at?

In my mind, if you were to sit in Seat 5 then any hands involved with the fish you will be huge positive EV, but then any hands involved with the LAGs you are say medium negative EV. If you were to sit in Seat 1 or 9 you will probably be small positive EV in hands with either the fish or the LAGs.

That is obviously a very rough approximation, but I guess my point is that there are advantages and disadvantages for either spot. If the difference is say <0.5bb/hour at choosing Seat 5 over Seat 1 or 9, I might be inclined to just stay put since as others have pointed out, constant seat changing creates a predatory atmosphere, not to mention slows down the game. If the difference is like 2bb/hour or more (which it could be, I have no idea), then I could see the argument for seat changing.

I hope I am not coming off as argumentative, as I am genuinely curious as to what people's thoughts are.
What you are arguing now is nowhere near what you said earlier:

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About how much extra bb/hour could a player gain by seat changing (like maybe once per hour max) rather than that same person just staying put the whole night?
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Old 09-08-2015, 07:13 PM   #10365
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Obviously if changing seat in which seat change has no value, then there is no value.

But if the comparison is between never changing and having the option to change, change obviously has the potential to be of higher EV.
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:23 PM   #10366
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If the game is playing huge because of a particular player I'll often move to their right.
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:43 PM   #10367
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Including table changes. I would say I seat change an average of 5-6 times a session.
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:17 AM   #10368
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If the game is playing huge because of a particular player I'll often move to their right.
You mean to their left...? Unless you just plan on limp/3bet squeezing all day
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:38 AM   #10369
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You mean to their left...? Unless you just plan on limp/3bet squeezing all day
No, he means to their right. The maniac becomes the new Blind Bet, as they're always betting preflop, or whenever checked to. So you limp squeeze or limp call depending on the action and your hand and print money. Sitting to the left and attempting to iso with a wide range is suicide if there are even reasonably competent players at the table. This is the relative vs absolute position argument that gets rehashed constantly in the strat threads.
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:50 AM   #10370
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aves2 View Post
Just to be clear, we are talking about "relative" position, i.e. basically choosing which seat to take at the table. Obviously being in position in a hand (i.e. being on the button is a huge advantage).

I guess as a thought experiment, say there was a table with 3 fish in Seats 2,3,4. Seat 5 is open. And then there are 3 good LAGs in Seats 6,7,8. (Seat 1 and 9 are open as well). Which seat would everyone pick to sit down at?
First off, I don't know what fairy tale of a world you are playing in where there are 3 good LAGs at one table. I've only met a very small number of good LAGs in LLSNL.

While good LAGs play more hands than TAGs, they still generally play less hands than fish who play practically every hand.

I think direct position on the fish is more important. Being on the left of the LAG will tie your hands a bit. The fish will limp and the LAG will open, forcing us to fold hands that we would otherwise open with ourselves. Of course we could 3bet the good LAG more but what that does is fold out the fish and isolate the good lag which is exactly opposite of what we want to do.

As for seat selection in general, I'd say that often times it is even more important than table selection. Being in a bad seat with a big fish or two on your left could be the difference between the table being profitable or not.

BTW, there is merit to what 11t said about seat selection. Particularly in bigger games, you will definitely take heat for continuously changing seats. Most of the fish in these games understand position (even if they don't utilize it much) and may take offense to the predatory nature of your seat change. That being said, if I want to change seats, I will change seats particularly if it will greatly impact the dynamics of the game. However, if it's just a marginal benefit to change seats I will stay put because changing seats is pretty much telling the player on the right that you are coming after his chips.
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Old 09-09-2015, 03:36 AM   #10371
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Once I was in the 8, kid (although he was probably older than me) was in the 7, 9 seat leaves, kid moves from 7 to 9 I guess to get position on me, I saw the next guy coming who was 100 and didn't want pos. on him so I move to the 7, kid immediately moves to the 8 to have immediate position on me again, and since the old guy was making a career out of walking over I had the chance to move to the 9, and keep him oop to me, which would have been great. But I didn't.

And by the way, I own the movie rights, so don't get any ideas.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:06 AM   #10372
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Worst part IMO is people constantly asking for the button(s) with no intent of changing seats.

Usually when one guy asks for the button the dealer runs out from other people thinking they need a button too. Most common seat change I see in Vegas is people wanting a view.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:53 AM   #10373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer View Post
Some backwards thinking itt and I see it at the casinos all the time as well.

I love it when a reg moves to my left, thanks for giving me better position vs the fish buddy.
+1
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:21 PM   #10374
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I played my first 12 hour day for the first time since 2011. I actually felt good. lost 250 tho
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Old 09-09-2015, 04:45 PM   #10375
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I played my first 12 hour day for the first time since 2011. I actually felt good. lost 250 tho
Congrats bro! For realz, it feels good to be able to put in long sessions. I feel like a god. But it's probably stupid to do unless you're playing primarily in the zone or you have so much equity at the table, you can get away with your C game.
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