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Old 08-31-2015, 10:08 AM   #10176
zoltan
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by danhendo888 View Post
I started recording my sessions since March this year, and it has been fun doing so:
- last 137 hours
- $35/hr
- about 25 sessions or so

Anyway, I've decided to not player poker again. Reasons? Psychological.

My most memorable times at the tables were not days where I made money, but rather the jokes, banter and laughter I shared with the larger than life characters that I was lucky enough to be sat with; whether they be young or old, novices or professionals. Because I've realized, that at the end of the day, I'm a recreational player, I'm here to have fun.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed that, thanks again to 2p2 and this forum and of course.. good luck at the tables.

danhendo888
See you at llsnl meetup next year obv.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:12 AM   #10177
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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
After some of the worst run bad in my life (funny how happens when you move up), I'm going back to 1/2 and 1/3 for at least a month or two to work on some things and get my confidence back up.

It gets really hard to justify $10/hr at 2/5 when the path to get there is -$1500 one night and +$1600 the next night. Merry Christmas to all the 2-outers and set-minefields I navigated over the last month at 2/5.

I've got 4 more sessions to turn August from the worst month of 2015 to positive. Up for the challenge.
I would read Jared's 2 volume set on the mental game while you're there.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:22 AM   #10178
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
FWIW, I always buy in for 100 BB's only. I just thought table dynamics (and perhaps frustration tilt and expecting mean reversion) dictated topping off to the table max.

At this point, I wanna see if I can turn a -$3000 month as of 8/25 into a positive month from just 1/2.
I thought Miller's number was high, but I guess it is possible for an "average winning player" to go on a $30,000.00 downswing playing 2/5. I know a good 2/5 player who won 4k over 10 days, then lost 5k over ~10 days, etc., etc.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:28 AM   #10179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Skill gap between 1/2 and 2/5 is minimal.
And how would you know, spending your time on 2+2 averaging 12.25 posts per day?
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Old 08-31-2015, 12:08 PM   #10180
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
And how would you know, spending your time on 2+2 averaging 12.25 posts per day?
that's nothing I averaged 27 posts per day on MLG over a year and a half period.

anyway the skill gap between 2/5 and 1/2 is pretty large, the reason people can see such huge rate gap is because of the high rake effect at 1/2 and the generally more shallow stacks.

it's a simple matter of how few full time very good professionals play 1/2, the presence of even one of those in your game lowers your winrate by a lot. many 2/5 games have 3-4 winners in the game at any time, some of them who are very big winners.

so yeah basically
1/2 is probably more than twice as easy but the rake is higher in proportion to your average pot
the stacks stay shallower generally due to more risk averse recreational players

2/5 is much tougher but you reach the rake cap much more easily creating a rake freeroll, the stacks are generally deeper but don't get in as easily which means the last 100 big blinds isn't as accessible as the first 100.

When I to played sit and gos I had it explained to me just how much it effects everyones rate winners and losers when there is one guy winning in a game, 2 even more so and so on.
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Old 08-31-2015, 12:44 PM   #10181
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by JamesGreen View Post
anyway the skill gap between 2/5 and 1/2 is pretty large,
So the skill gap is huge because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGreen View Post
the reason people can see such huge rate gap is because of the high rake effect at 1/2 and the generally more shallow stacks.
Rate gap? Though poorly written, I am assuming you're referring to 2/5 as higher win rate.

So higher win rate because of fewer shallow stacks makes 2/5 harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGreen View Post
it's a simple matter of how few full time very good professionals play 1/2, the presence of even one of those in your game lowers your winrate by a lot. many 2/5 games have 3-4 winners in the game at any time, some of them who are very big winners.
So there are more winners in 2/5 games, therefore the game is harder?

Wouldn't it mean that the game is easier if there are more winners?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGreen View Post
so yeah basically
1/2 is probably more than twice as easy but the rake is higher in proportion to your average pot
the stacks stay shallower generally due to more risk averse recreational players
Wait, wouldn't that be building a case that 1/2 is harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGreen View Post
2/5 is much tougher but you reach the rake cap much more easily creating a rake freeroll, the stacks are generally deeper but don't get in as easily which means the last 100 big blinds isn't as accessible as the first 100.
So it's easy to win the first 100bb of effective stack, but not to much for 200bb, and therefore the game is harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGreen View Post
When I to played sit and gos I had it explained to me just how much it effects everyones rate winners and losers when there is one guy winning in a game, 2 even more so and so on.
Do you not understand that sit-n-go is very different than cash game?

Bottom line, you have presented zero coherent thought as to how the skill gap between two games is pretty big.
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:21 PM   #10182
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
So the skill gap is huge because...


Rate gap? Though poorly written, I am assuming you're referring to 2/5 as higher win rate.

So higher win rate because of fewer shallow stacks makes 2/5 harder?


So there are more winners in 2/5 games, therefore the game is harder?

Wouldn't it mean that the game is easier if there are more winners?



Wait, wouldn't that be building a case that 1/2 is harder?



So it's easy to win the first 100bb of effective stack, but not to much for 200bb, and therefore the game is harder?



Do you not understand that sit-n-go is very different than cash game?

Bottom line, you have presented zero coherent thought as to how the skill gap between two games is pretty big.
and if you were a teacher marking his exam paper, this would be a problem.
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:30 PM   #10183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
and if you were a teacher marking his exam paper, this would be a problem.
IMO, best way to learn is to examine each post and question whether you can answer every aspects of the underlying questions.
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Old 08-31-2015, 02:54 PM   #10184
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by feel wrath View Post
No reason to quit completely Dan.

Maybe after a break, you'll join the once a week club like a few of us others. By limiting your play you may retain a sustainable passion for it
+1

Limiting my poker to just once a week really makes me enjoy the time at the table, win or lose.

But, each to his own. If you're not enjoying your time at the table, then definitely look into different hobbies.

Ggoodluck!G
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:05 PM   #10185
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
I thought Miller's number was high, but I guess it is possible for an "average winning player" to go on a $30,000.00 downswing playing 2/5. I know a good 2/5 player who won 4k over 10 days, then lost 5k over ~10 days, etc., etc.
I'm not familiar with where Miller wrote this, but when I saw what you wrote here, I was like "wait... what?". So I had to hit the calculator a bit....

Worst possible 3 SDV downswings for assumed True WRs and SDVs:

WR 20/hr, SDV 120/hr, ($1,901) in 95 hours (1-2 crusher numbers, obv)
WR 30/hr, SDV 300/hr, ($6,750) in 225 hours
WR 15/hr, SDV 500/hr, ($37,500) in 2500 hours

gl marginally winning SLAGs!
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:13 PM   #10186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
IMO, best way to learn is to examine each post and question whether you can answer every aspects of the underlying questions.
I understand that and it has merits. But picking faults in other strategies only gets you half way there
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Old 08-31-2015, 03:46 PM   #10187
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Don't expect me to share the other half.
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Old 08-31-2015, 04:38 PM   #10188
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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
And how would you know, spending your time on 2+2 averaging 12.25 posts per day?
12.25 posts per day is pretty pathetic, IMO.


gIAmAveragingOnly12.21PostsPerDayg
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:31 AM   #10189
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Don't expect me to share the other half.
sharemywife.com?
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:43 AM   #10190
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuneit
And how would you know, spending your time on 2+2 averaging 12.25 posts per day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker View Post
12.25 posts per day is pretty pathetic, IMO.


gIAmAveragingOnly12.21PostsPerDayg
Parker's been doing it for 2 1/2 years - you're still working on your first

= zuneit trying to be funny.
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:50 AM   #10191
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

^richard is a great troll

August has ended and i just hit 1k hours in my local game today, up 23k at 1-2 with 2months break even. Game is closer to a 2-5 then a 1-2 thought
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:57 AM   #10192
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So, my 6 six month results are in & as dismal as they may be, I shall post them anyways:

This is all 1/2 NLHE
Since 28Feb, I've logged 667.24 hours of play. That's actually sitting at the table.
I've averaged $14.62 per hour with a standard deviation of 98.008 BB.

I've won 62.11% of my sessions.

Total earned profit $9754.00 Plus some 2k+ in promotion money.

I've had 3 losing months since I started playing an average of 110 hrs a month in July 2014. I wish I had got a session logger back then.

I refuse to play more than 110 hours, because I did not retire to go to work full time. So, I could really use a clue [or two or three] on how to get that average to $19. Right now it floats betweens $14 & $18 depending on where I'm at in my up or down swing.

I am comfortable, financially, with the $15 pr hr subsidizing my other income. However, it would be nice to bag another $4 * 110 hrs * 12 months = $5280.00
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Old 09-01-2015, 02:03 AM   #10193
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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
So, my 6 six month results are in & as dismal as they may be, I shall post them anyways:

This is all 1/2 NLHE
Since 28Feb, I've logged 667.24 hours of play. That's actually sitting at the table.
I've averaged $14.62 per hour with a standard deviation of 98.008 BB.

I've won 62.11% of my sessions.

Total earned profit $9754.00 Plus some 2k+ in promotion money.

I've had 3 losing months since I started playing an average of 110 hrs a month in July 2014. I wish I had got a session logger back then.

I refuse to play more than 110 hours, because I did not retire to go to work full time. So, I could really use a clue [or two or three] on how to get that average to $19. Right now it floats betweens $14 & $18 depending on where I'm at in my up or down swing.

I am comfortable, financially, with the $15 pr hr subsidizing my other income. However, it would be nice to bag another $4 * 110 hrs * 12 months = $5280.00
7bb an hour isn't dismal at all. You're most likely a top 5% player at your stakes in your room. Congratulations!

I don't play 1/2 any more but when I did, the single most important improvement I made to increase my win rate was to improve (enlarge) my value bet sizing.
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Old 09-01-2015, 02:12 AM   #10194
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Thanks for the advice! Friday night a good friend of mine who was dealing at my table gave me a scolding look when I made a weak value bet on the river.

I mentioned it to my friend sitting on my left, who later showed me what a true value bet on the river is. It was so thin, that when he got called, he said: "All I've got is two pair." And, it was 1st & 3rd pair at that on a 3 str8 & flush board HU. Runner, runner flush though.
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Old 09-01-2015, 02:39 AM   #10195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kekeeke View Post
^richard is a great troll

August has ended and i just hit 1k hours in my local game today, up 23k at 1-2 with 2months break even. Game is closer to a 2-5 then a 1-2 thought
Smart players recognize value. Bad players think I speak gibberish.
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Old 09-01-2015, 02:54 AM   #10196
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
So, my 6 six month results are in & as dismal as they may be, I shall post them anyways:

This is all 1/2 NLHE
Since 28Feb, I've logged 667.24 hours of play. That's actually sitting at the table.
I've averaged $14.62 per hour with a standard deviation of 98.008 BB.

I've won 62.11% of my sessions.

Total earned profit $9754.00 Plus some 2k+ in promotion money.

I've had 3 losing months since I started playing an average of 110 hrs a month in July 2014. I wish I had got a session logger back then.

I refuse to play more than 110 hours, because I did not retire to go to work full time. So, I could really use a clue [or two or three] on how to get that average to $19. Right now it floats betweens $14 & $18 depending on where I'm at in my up or down swing.

I am comfortable, financially, with the $15 pr hr subsidizing my other income. However, it would be nice to bag another $4 * 110 hrs * 12 months = $5280.00
If you're playing with players who buy in as short stacks, then it's going to be difficult. You can't win money that isn't on the table. Big win rates at 1/2 require deep games.
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:26 AM   #10197
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Originally Posted by AllJackedUp View Post
I had 2000 hours of 10/bb per hour, followed now by ~400 hours of twilight zone alternate universe type of running.

Spoiler:
Turning it around?

Spoiler:
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:54 AM   #10198
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
So, my 6 six month results are in & as dismal as they may be, I shall post them anyways:

This is all 1/2 NLHE
Since 28Feb, I've logged 667.24 hours of play. That's actually sitting at the table.
I've averaged $14.62 per hour with a standard deviation of 98.008 BB.

I've won 62.11% of my sessions.

Total earned profit $9754.00 Plus some 2k+ in promotion money.

I've had 3 losing months since I started playing an average of 110 hrs a month in July 2014. I wish I had got a session logger back then.

I refuse to play more than 110 hours, because I did not retire to go to work full time. So, I could really use a clue [or two or three] on how to get that average to $19. Right now it floats betweens $14 & $18 depending on where I'm at in my up or down swing.

I am comfortable, financially, with the $15 pr hr subsidizing my other income. However, it would be nice to bag another $4 * 110 hrs * 12 months = $5280.00
These are GREAT results!
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:11 PM   #10199
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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
I am comfortable, financially, with the $15 pr hr subsidizing my other income. However, it would be nice to bag another $4 * 110 hrs * 12 months = $5280.00
These results aren't dismal, they are rockstar level.

I have zero idea what your play is like or what your tables are like. But, a couple typical things that winning players can do to boost their winrate 1 or 2 BB per hour:

1) does your room offer any cash back promos? One of my rooms let's me cash in reward points based on hours of play. It's not much, but it's something.

2) can you find one hand per hour where you can steal the blinds from button rather than let the sb and bb chop? if you can, that's $3 per hour right there.

3) can you find one spot per session where you can value bet thin rather than check the river? Example, last night, there was one hand where I had second pair on a K hi board at river but I was really sure that villain hand an under pair and would fold to any real show of strength. The pot was like $70 at the river and I led out for $10 OOP and was called.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:23 PM   #10200
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+1 to all the comments regarding 7.3 bb/hr being anything but dismal.

AllJackedUp, what leaks do you think you identified at the bottom of your graph?

G2bb/hrwinnerin2015,truestoryG
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