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Old 04-23-2015, 05:20 PM   #9276
ZippyThePinhead
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Most of the time when I see someone at 1/2 in my game with 400 or 500 it isn't because they are good. It is because they coolered someone or sucked out. A lot of those players have zero clue how to play deep.

Seems like nearly every single time i play there is always at least one fish and often several that have run up a stack with zero chance of keeping it short of picking up and going home. Almost without fail, they keep playing and give it all away.

Agree that skill level of other players is more important than stack depth. At 1/2 more often than not skill level is poor.

Against the average players i play against, I'd rather be as deep as possible relative to the blinds.

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Last edited by ZippyThePinhead; 04-23-2015 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:00 PM   #9277
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Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post

Against the average player I face with $500 stacks , i'd much rather that game be 1/2 than 2/5
I'd prefer the same situation, but not because of a higher hourly, but because of less variance playing so deep
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:34 PM   #9278
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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If you're not covering the deep stacks in doesn't matter much though. If you're at 100BB, playing against a guy who's also sitting with 100BB and ready to rebuy 3x is pretty similar to a guy sitting with 350BB. Covering deep fish is overrated imo. How often do you actually stack guys in non-cooler situations 200BB+ deep? There are probably a few more but I can recall about 5 hands like that in ~950 hours. The guy ready to lose 3-5 bi's going limp/call check/call check/call with TPNK isn't much worse if at all worse than a guy sitting 300BB deep waiting to lose a K-high flush vs nut flush hand to you.
This isn't true.

In order for many people to be over the buyin cap, there must have been a lot of action. Which means most likely the table was loose before and likely still is. Likely the players sitting on those deep stacks are loose, and likely they're not going anywhere for a while.

But another point is you don't have to stack anyone to reap the benefits of playing deep. When you are effectively deep a good player can profitably play more hands. You don't stack someone super deep that often but you are able to steal a lot more and that's what makes the biggest difference in most games.
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:28 PM   #9279
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ohmyrage View Post
I'd prefer the same situation, but not because of a higher hourly, but because of less variance playing so deep
I would rather play a $500 stack fish at 1/2 than 2/5 too. You wont be able to stack him as quickly but its a matter of luck being higher / decisions being easier for a fish the shorter they are. At 2/5 100bbs deep a fish can only bleed off so much before getting pot commited and so you cant really outplay them from flop to river on all streets and run bluff plays etc.

A tough question is, is you hourly going to be higher heads up at 1/2 or 2/5? I think 2/5 because the blinds are worth more? steal 5 blinds per hour at 2/5 and your making an extra $25 per hour vs $10 at 1/2? Or is starting off 250bbs vs 100bbs deep more important? If I was playing 1/2 I would definitley make the opening size larger like $15 though.
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:42 PM   #9280
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

There are players at 2/5 with close to $100/hr hourly. No way is the attainable winrate anywhere close to that at 1/2 unless the bet sizing is much larger than in normal 1/2 games.
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Old 04-23-2015, 08:54 PM   #9281
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There are players at 2/5 with close to $100/hr hourly. No way is the attainable winrate anywhere close to that at 1/2 unless the bet sizing is much larger than in normal 1/2 games.
Yep. I believe that. For where I'm at with my game, I'll happily sacrifice the potential of a higher hourly for low stress deep 1/2.

$25-30/hour stress free hobby > stressful $40-75/hour for me.


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Old 04-24-2015, 03:41 AM   #9282
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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All £1/2 games in london have a 5% capped 10£+£1. Isnt that ridiculously high? Do you guys think its still possible to have a 10+ Bb per hour? Max buyin is around 400 and people usually have anywhere between 75-600 bb
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idk man, probably not 10bb/hr
I wouldn't be so sure. In American games, rake is usually capped at 5+1 or even 4+1, but it's 10% -- you hit the cap every hand (it maxes out at 20-25bb at 1/2). With the cap hitting at 100bb and the equivalent of the standard US cap hitting at 50bb, the rake is actually lower in UK games for smaller pots (such as: you raise to £15, get 1 call, cbet and take it down, that's just 3 quid of rake).

If it was 10% up to £10, then I'd tell you it makes a bit of a difference (not a huge difference, but enough to have an impact), but at 5% it should be about the same. You pay a bit more in big pots, a bit less in small pots.

I think 5%-£10 should be as beatable as any 1/2. Especially if the lineup is as bad as the standard 1/2 game.
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Old 04-24-2015, 06:26 AM   #9283
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
I wouldn't be so sure. In American games, rake is usually capped at 5+1 or even 4+1, but it's 10% -- you hit the cap every hand (it maxes out at 20-25bb at 1/2). With the cap hitting at 100bb and the equivalent of the standard US cap hitting at 50bb, the rake is actually lower in UK games for smaller pots (such as: you raise to £15, get 1 call, cbet and take it down, that's just 3 quid of rake).

If it was 10% up to £10, then I'd tell you it makes a bit of a difference (not a huge difference, but enough to have an impact), but at 5% it should be about the same. You pay a bit more in big pots, a bit less in small pots.

I think 5%-£10 should be as beatable as any 1/2. Especially if the lineup is as bad as the standard 1/2 game.
This is a good point.
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:58 AM   #9284
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
Yep. I believe that. For where I'm at with my game, I'll happily sacrifice the potential of a higher hourly for low stress deep 1/2.

$25-30/hour stress free hobby > stressful $40-75/hour for me.


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If you can build a bigger roll, $2/5 should be the way to go. IME the difference in skill between the two limits is negligible. A bit higher variance in $2/5 but that's where you make more money.

IOW $2/5 games aren't 40-60% tougher than $1/2 games.
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Old 04-24-2015, 09:20 AM   #9285
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker View Post
There are players at 2/5 with close to $100/hr hourly. No way is the attainable winrate anywhere close to that at 1/2 unless the bet sizing is much larger than in normal 1/2 games.
Really doubt anybodys true hourly rate at 2/5 is 100 $/hr. I'm not saying somebody can't actually have that winrate for an extended period of time, it's almost guaranteed over a large enough player pool and over a specific sample size.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:51 AM   #9286
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Nobody said $100/hr is attainable.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:56 AM   #9287
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You literally just wrote that
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:00 AM   #9288
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I really didn't though.
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:03 AM   #9289
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by NeverLosesAtPoker View Post
There are players at 2/5 with close to $100/hr hourly.
Gthisis,like,onthepreviouspageG
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:04 AM   #9290
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Gthisis,like,onthepreviouspageG

Thanks for properly quoting my post rather than purporting that I said something else.
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:23 AM   #9291
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Lol I'm sorry you said "close", we rounding up by like 25$?
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:32 AM   #9292
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If money exist in a room where "close" to $100/hr is possible, there would more than likely be bigger games.

If there are bigger games that run regularly, almost certain that any players that are killing at $100/hr would move up.
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:36 AM   #9293
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

People way underestimate the importance of the other end of winrate math.... what loss rates are sustainable in a player pool.
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:45 AM   #9294
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People way underestimate the importance of the other end of winrate math.... what loss rates are sustainable in a player pool.
Exactly, hence a pool that can sustain such high winrate must be regularly spreading even bigger games.
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Old 04-24-2015, 02:24 PM   #9295
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Really doubt anybodys true hourly rate at 2/5 is 100 $/hr. I'm not saying somebody can't actually have that winrate for an extended period of time, it's almost guaranteed over a large enough player pool and over a specific sample size.
i am

i call bs

by extended we're talking 2k+ hrs minimum right?

even $75/hr FT for a year+ has to require quite a unique set of circumstances... at least in the U.S.

assuming results are all tracked in brick & mortar and not merged w/ some home games mixed in
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Old 04-24-2015, 02:40 PM   #9296
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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If money exist in a room where "close" to $100/hr is possible, there would more than likely be bigger games.

If there are bigger games that run regularly, almost certain that any players that are killing at $100/hr would move up.

Not if their winrate in the higher games is similar or worse.
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:24 PM   #9297
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Not if their winrate in the higher games is similar or worse.
Logically that's hard to believe, but whatever.
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:48 PM   #9298
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Logically that's hard to believe, but whatever.

It's not that hard to believe. If there are two 5/10s with 4 to 8 grinders each and 10+ 2/5s with 1 to 2 grinders each and a ton of rec fish.

I have a buddy that's 10x the player I am. Before Black Friday he mass multitabled online for a living without a HUD grinding as high as 5/10 online. He normally chooses to play 2/5 rather than 5/10. I've never seen him make a mistake before (I make multiple mistakes every session) and he's the only player I know to have 40+ winning sessions in a row.

Another issue could be bankroll. I know players that make six figures a year playing poker that can't maintain a sizable bankroll due to spending habits.

The other possibilities are that they are content at 2/5 or just haven't solved 5/10 yet.
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:14 PM   #9299
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So why would those 5/10 grinder play 5/10 then? Why not also play 2/5?

Whatever.
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:18 PM   #9300
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Majority of the nights at MDL 2/5 is the best game in the house and I think I can make more at it than a reg infested 5/T main game if I table select the best 2/5 game in the house.
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