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Old 04-18-2015, 07:11 PM   #9251
DK Barrel
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I would still contend that more fish sit under the cap then above it.

I mean yeah, we've all seen the guy; he's drunk and has vomit on his shirt and spewing it up 500bb deep and sun running.

But for every one of those guys is 10 fish who are sitting there with 50-80bb.

As an anecdote, one of the prime tells of a fish before he even plays a hand is how much he buys in for and IME and I'm sure others will agree it is rarely 100bb or the cap
You can choose to sit at the table with the spewer sitting on 500bb.

Game selection can easily double a winrate. I don't even mean going around a huge 40 table room trying to find the biggest whale. Even just picking the best of four tables. Or two. Or playing a lower stake when the only tables are your usual stakes are terrible.

I think 70/hr at a 500 cap 2/5 is doable if there are regularly 3+ tables going.
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Old 04-18-2015, 07:19 PM   #9252
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Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
You can choose to sit at the table with the spewer sitting on 500bb.

Game selection can easily double a winrate. I don't even mean going around a huge 40 table room trying to find the biggest whale. Even just picking the best of four tables. Or two. Or playing a lower stake when the only tables are your usual stakes are terrible.

I think 70/hr at a 500 cap 2/5 is doable if there are regularly 3+ tables going.
I agree with everything here.

I was mainly trying to refute the notion that a 500 cap game is impossible to pull 70/hr
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Old 04-18-2015, 08:06 PM   #9253
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the general belief is that 70/hr is possible playing mostly prime hours (friday, weekends, graveyard), a large player pool, and whales on a regular basis.

even if a 2/5 player had all these advatanges, what percentage of them will actual come close to it over a sample size of 1,000 hours? the small percentage of the players that do are surely running way above ev.
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Old 04-18-2015, 09:16 PM   #9254
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the general belief is that 70/hr is possible playing mostly prime hours (friday, weekends, graveyard), a large player pool, and whales on a regular basis.

I know for a fact that winrates higher than $70/hr are attainable regardless of whether one is playing prime hours or not.
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Old 04-19-2015, 01:12 AM   #9255
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I know for a fact that winrates higher than $70/hr are attainable regardless of whether one is playing prime hours or not.


Sure, it's not common though. Higher than 70 starts to get pretty rare actually. I have averaged 40 over 1k hours at 1/2 so I hope when I move to 2/5 full time I can do 70+. Truth is I would be happy with half of that. I just need to plug other life leaks so I can save what I make because I'm not even rolled for 1/2 now due to pit games and life expenses.
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Old 04-20-2015, 02:01 AM   #9256
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Sure, it's not common though. Higher than 70 starts to get pretty rare actually. I have averaged 40 over 1k hours at 1/2 so I hope when I move to 2/5 full time I can do 70+. Truth is I would be happy with half of that. I just need to plug other life leaks so I can save what I make because I'm not even rolled for 1/2 now due to pit games and life expenses.
If you're making 40/hour at 1/2 (without redonkulous insane variance to the extent it might as well be 2/5), I might stick to 1/2 unless 2/5 is not a significantly tougher game -- at least until you have a really deep roll. Your bankroll exposure is much less at 1/2.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:22 AM   #9257
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^ +1

The hourly will be smaller than it can be, but the lack of variance is very valuable if you're not as rolled as you'd like to be. I had KK < AA, bottom set < mid set, flopped flush < backdoor boat, TT < K3o aipf, and AT < T2 aipf all in the past week and it's only cost ~$400. So these guys weren't all at 100BB+, so the hourly expectation won't be very high, but taking the beats and not having to worry is pretty awesome.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:24 AM   #9258
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Game selection can easily double a winrate. I don't even mean going around a huge 40 table room trying to find the biggest whale. Even just picking the best of four tables. Or two. Or playing a lower stake when the only tables are your usual stakes are terrible.
I don't know about double, but almost no one [that I see at least] understands game-/table-/seat-selection. You're foregoing so much by not doing them or doing them incorrectly. I'd say of people trying to win, ~3% try to do it, and of that 3%, no one puts much thought into why they're selecting what they're selecting and they all do it wrong.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:35 AM   #9259
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I don't know about double, but almost no one [that I see at least] understands game-/table-/seat-selection. You're foregoing so much by not doing them or doing them incorrectly. I'd say of people trying to win, ~3% try to do it, and of that 3%, no one puts much thought into why they're selecting what they're selecting and they all do it wrong.
I don't know how to select. When I come in the room for a usual 4 hour session, I sit in the seat I am assigned. It takes 10-15 minutes to get a an idea of how everyone s playing but then again the game changes all the time. A game that nitty at 10 can be loose at 11.

Anywho, if I don't like a game should I stand up and walk the casino and look for what? And the. Ask for a specific table?nis that even feasible?
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:24 AM   #9260
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I don't know how to select. When I come in the room for a usual 4 hour session, I sit in the seat I am assigned. It takes 10-15 minutes to get a an idea of how everyone s playing but then again the game changes all the time. A game that nitty at 10 can be loose at 11.

Anywho, if I don't like a game should I stand up and walk the casino and look for what? And the. Ask for a specific table?nis that even feasible?
its totally feasible to ask for a specific game/table.

Look for

1) money

2) alcohol

3) certain demographics

4) how loud/noisy the table is

various other things
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Old 04-21-2015, 04:32 AM   #9261
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I look for 2 nits sitting consecutively and get on their right, and the rest of the table doesn't really matter, I have the button 3 hands every orbit.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:49 AM   #9262
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I cannot stand short stackers. If I get sat at a seat with 3+ people with <50 BB stacks I am immediately looking for a table change. Hard to play for stacks when you have 3 shorties, 3 nits/rocks, one so-so player and an empty seat. :\
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:12 AM   #9263
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I look for 2 nits sitting consecutively and get on their right, and the rest of the table doesn't really matter, I have the button 3 hands every orbit.
Almost no one understands this. Personally, I get position on the deep fish and watch the nits scramble to get on my left. Benefits of being on the aggro side lol.

Some feel the need to apologize. They have no idea that they are exactly where I want them.
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:12 PM   #9264
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I look for 2 nits sitting consecutively and get on their right, and the rest of the table doesn't really matter, I have the button 3 hands every orbit.
Love this. Definitely gonna try it out next time I'm looking for a table change.
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:38 PM   #9265
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All £1/2 games in london have a 5% capped 10£+£1. Isnt that ridiculously high? Do you guys think its still possible to have a 10+ Bb per hour? Max buyin is around 400 and people usually have anywhere between 75-600 bb
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Old 04-23-2015, 06:05 AM   #9266
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All £1/2 games in london have a 5% capped 10£+£1. Isnt that ridiculously high? Do you guys think its still possible to have a 10+ Bb per hour? Max buyin is around 400 and people usually have anywhere between 75-600 bb
idk man, probably not 10bb/hr
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Old 04-23-2015, 07:39 AM   #9267
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anyone got some ideas on making the move up to 2/5?

I am beating 1/2 over a 300 hour sample. Lately, my last 100 hours, I have been murdering 1/2 thanks to rungood and 2p2 and lots of time spent studying.

My poker roll is 80buyins at 1/2. Also have 10k emergency money. I need to make $10/hr to pay all bills.

Time to take a few shots at 2/5? Anything I should look out for?
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Old 04-23-2015, 10:27 AM   #9268
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anyone got some ideas on making the move up to 2/5?

I am beating 1/2 over a 300 hour sample. Lately, my last 100 hours, I have been murdering 1/2 thanks to rungood and 2p2 and lots of time spent studying.

My poker roll is 80buyins at 1/2. Also have 10k emergency money. I need to make $10/hr to pay all bills.

Time to take a few shots at 2/5? Anything I should look out for?
Very broad question - depends on a lot of factors (where you play, your comfort level, min-max buyin etc).

For me, it has been easier to play 2-5 vs 1-2 due to ease of calculating 5xbets, higher motivation, and Ability to withstand the variance/beats/bad play compared to many others. I think there are more competitive business folks on 2-5 tables. Other than that, the play is the same.
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Old 04-23-2015, 10:31 AM   #9269
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I've started taking shots here and there at 2/5. I imagine I will start playing it full-time in 2016. Have been running very well at 1/2 but there are still a lot of leaks I want to fix and experiments I want to conduct cheaply at 1/2 before moving up. My confidence at 1/2 is at an all-time high right now.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:12 PM   #9270
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cool johnnybuz, go get em!
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:21 PM   #9271
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Originally Posted by progress View Post
anyone got some ideas on making the move up to 2/5?

I am beating 1/2 over a 300 hour sample. Lately, my last 100 hours, I have been murdering 1/2 thanks to rungood and 2p2 and lots of time spent studying.

My poker roll is 80buyins at 1/2. Also have 10k emergency money. I need to make $10/hr to pay all bills.

Time to take a few shots at 2/5? Anything I should look out for?
300 hours is still a very small sample.

I'd start taking shots when the $2/5 game looks good. (Drunks, tourists, lots of money getting thrown around.) Game/table select aggressively. If the $1/2 looks juicier and you recognize a whale or two, sit there. Don't fall into the "I'm a $2/5 player now" trap and sit at a table full of regs/grinders because you don't want to "drop down".
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:36 PM   #9272
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Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
I don't know about double, but almost no one [that I see at least] understands game-/table-/seat-selection. You're foregoing so much by not doing them or doing them incorrectly. I'd say of people trying to win, ~3% try to do it, and of that 3%, no one puts much thought into why they're selecting what they're selecting and they all do it wrong.
The biggest difference is stack depth. Especially at lower stakes which often have a shallow buyin structure. For example the room I played the most at, 1/2 was $100-$300 buyin. One table might have everyone sitting on $50-$160, another table might have everyone sitting on $250-$500. That's a massive difference.

When I'm table selecting the #1 thing I look for is how much money is on it. Because 90% of the time the deepest table is going to be the most profitable one, and it's something you can spot immediately. I can walk into a poker room and find out where I want to be just by looking around as I'm led to my initial table.

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Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
If you're making 40/hour at 1/2 (without redonkulous insane variance to the extent it might as well be 2/5), I might stick to 1/2 unless 2/5 is not a significantly tougher game -- at least until you have a really deep roll. Your bankroll exposure is much less at 1/2.
How many tables of each stake go at your room? The bigger game tends to attract the better players, making the lower games that much better. If there's usually just one 2/5 table and a few 1/2s then 1/2 might actually be better for you.

You could always just play 2/5 when it looks particularly juicy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
All £1/2 games in london have a 5% capped 10£+£1. Isnt that ridiculously high? Do you guys think its still possible to have a 10+ Bb per hour? Max buyin is around 400 and people usually have anywhere between 75-600 bb
It's high but it's still beatable, especially if it usually gets that deep. 10bb/hr would be possible for a top player.
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Old 04-23-2015, 04:54 PM   #9273
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The biggest difference is stack depth. Especially at lower stakes which often have a shallow buyin structure. For example the room I played the most at, 1/2 was $100-$300 buyin. One table might have everyone sitting on $50-$160, another table might have everyone sitting on $250-$500. That's a massive difference.

When I'm table selecting the #1 thing I look for is how much money is on it. Because 90% of the time the deepest table is going to be the most profitable one, and it's something you can spot immediately. I can walk into a poker room and find out where I want to be just by looking around as I'm led to my initial table.
If you're not covering the deep stacks in doesn't matter much though. If you're at 100BB, playing against a guy who's also sitting with 100BB and ready to rebuy 3x is pretty similar to a guy sitting with 350BB. Covering deep fish is overrated imo. How often do you actually stack guys in non-cooler situations 200BB+ deep? There are probably a few more but I can recall about 5 hands like that in ~950 hours. The guy ready to lose 3-5 bi's going limp/call check/call check/call with TPNK isn't much worse if at all worse than a guy sitting 300BB deep waiting to lose a K-high flush vs nut flush hand to you.
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Old 04-23-2015, 05:09 PM   #9274
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If you're not covering the deep stacks in doesn't matter much though. If you're at 100BB, playing against a guy who's also sitting with 100BB and ready to rebuy 3x is pretty similar to a guy sitting with 350BB. Covering deep fish is overrated imo. How often do you actually stack guys in non-cooler situations 200BB+ deep? There are probably a few more but I can recall about 5 hands like that in ~950 hours. The guy ready to lose 3-5 bi's going limp/call check/call check/call with TPNK isn't much worse if at all worse than a guy sitting 300BB deep waiting to lose a K-high flush vs nut flush hand to you.
Completely disagree that playing against fish that are deep is overrated. The shallower the fish is, the easier the game is for him with more simple decisions on later streets.

My experience is that the deeper a fish is, the bigger the mistakes they can make. Just out of my last 3 sessions, two big hands come to mind.

Fish plays AA horribly, punts 250bb against flopped two pair.

Fish loses 220bb with KK versus flopped two pair.

I don't consider either hand a cooler. Both cases players involved were playing their hands face up for anyone with even tiny amount of hand ranging abilities to see.

Against the average player I face with $500 stacks , i'd much rather that game be 1/2 than 2/5

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Old 04-23-2015, 05:14 PM   #9275
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Against the average player I face with $500 stacks , i'd much rather that game be 1/2 than 2/5

That's ridiculous. Expected hourly at 2/5 with those stack sizes is much higher and it's not even close.

I agree with El Diesel. Too often I see grinders all go to the same table to try to stack one whale. Then you'll have one table with 4+ grinders which leaves me and the rest of the fish at the other table. I'll take those odds. Also things change quickly. I'd rather select a table based on the level of play rather than stack depths (unless a table is just ridiculously short which happens at 1/2 sometimes).
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