Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-18-2011, 12:04 AM   #876
Mr.JR
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,754
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm in the same situation. I got my roll up to $2200, then played bad, got down to $500, then changed my buy-in strategy and stopped buying in for $200 and started to buy-in for $80. Since then I have a greater focus and better game, and have built my roll back up to $2400.

Here is my plan regarding buy-ins and my bankroll

Bankroll Buy-in

>$3500 $80
3.5-4.5K $100
4.5-6K $120
6K-7.5K $160
7.5-10K $200

While I understand that buying in short if I am a good player is viewed as -EV, I have found that I play well when I buy-in for $80 because I spew less than when I buy-in for $200 previously because I don't put myself in marginal spots, I find great spots to double up my stack, even without being all-in and that I have a higher upside and less of a downside that buying in for $200. I will reload if I get below $60.

Flame Away!
Mr.JR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2011, 01:11 AM   #877
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,473
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.JR View Post
I'm in the same situation. I got my roll up to $2200, then played bad, got down to $500, then changed my buy-in strategy and stopped buying in for $200 and started to buy-in for $80. Since then I have a greater focus and better game, and have built my roll back up to $2400.

Here is my plan regarding buy-ins and my bankroll

Bankroll Buy-in

>$3500 $80
3.5-4.5K $100
4.5-6K $120
6K-7.5K $160
7.5-10K $200

While I understand that buying in short if I am a good player is viewed as -EV, I have found that I play well when I buy-in for $80 because I spew less than when I buy-in for $200 previously because I don't put myself in marginal spots, I find great spots to double up my stack, even without being all-in and that I have a higher upside and less of a downside that buying in for $200. I will reload if I get below $60.

Flame Away!
Bankroll nit confirmed; but its great to see that you are playing within your comfort zone and not listening to the "standard advice". If you aren't playing optimal with $200 buyin, then continue to do what you do.

I advise working on your "leaks" so you can buy in for 200 later on. If you truley improve at that, you will increase your winrate buying in full.
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2011, 12:51 PM   #878
yodachoda
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago IL suburbs
Posts: 2,936
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hey guys, I've been destroying the 1/2 games lately. After a brief break-even period, I'm finally going up hill again. Out of the last 5 sessions I've played, THREE of them have been $600+ profit sessions. I've been running good, winning a coinflip once, and winning a big pot w/ set vs straight by making a boat. I haven't been playing much different from before except loosening up slightly preflop and trying a few more bluffs in small to medium sized pots.

Also, I'm actually getting dealt hands. I actually get dealt 88+ or A10suited+ several times in an 8 hour session. I'm also actually flopping sets maybe once every 8 hours on average. For a 100 hour period before this I would regularly go 8 hours without making anything stronger than one pair on the flop, and never getting dealt 88+ or A10suited+ preflop.
yodachoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2011, 01:06 PM   #879
Dr. Doomswitch
adept
 
Dr. Doomswitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 882
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachoda View Post
Hey guys, I've been destroying the 1/2 games lately. After a brief break-even period, I'm finally going up hill again. Out of the last 5 sessions I've played, THREE of them have been $600+ profit sessions. I've been running good, winning a coinflip once, and winning a big pot w/ set vs straight by making a boat. I haven't been playing much different from before except loosening up slightly preflop and trying a few more bluffs in small to medium sized pots.

Also, I'm actually getting dealt hands. I actually get dealt 88+ or A10suited+ several times in an 8 hour session. I'm also actually flopping sets maybe once every 8 hours on average. For a 100 hour period before this I would regularly go 8 hours without making anything stronger than one pair on the flop, and never getting dealt 88+ or A10suited+ preflop.
The power of positive thinking.
Dr. Doomswitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2011, 01:11 PM   #880
Skinnybrown
grinder
 
Skinnybrown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 659
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachoda View Post
Hey guys, I've been destroying the 1/2 games lately. After a brief break-even period, I'm finally going up hill again. Out of the last 5 sessions I've played, THREE of them have been $600+ profit sessions. I've been running good, winning a coinflip once, and winning a big pot w/ set vs straight by making a boat. I haven't been playing much different from before except loosening up slightly preflop and trying a few more bluffs in small to medium sized pots.

Also, I'm actually getting dealt hands. I actually get dealt 88+ or A10suited+ several times in an 8 hour session. I'm also actually flopping sets maybe once every 8 hours on average. For a 100 hour period before this I would regularly go 8 hours without making anything stronger than one pair on the flop, and never getting dealt 88+ or A10suited+ preflop.
Good to hear. Hopefully I can manage the same. Have lost 4 or 5 sessions in a row. All of which involved my C game coming out in the late hours.

For now I inked my left hand with the letter A to remind myself live poker is slow and easy money so be patient.
Skinnybrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2011, 01:24 PM   #881
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,473
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachoda View Post
Hey guys, I've been destroying the 1/2 games lately. After a brief break-even period, I'm finally going up hill again. Out of the last 5 sessions I've played, THREE of them have been $600+ profit sessions. I've been running good, winning a coinflip once, and winning a big pot w/ set vs straight by making a boat. I haven't been playing much different from before except loosening up slightly preflop and trying a few more bluffs in small to medium sized pots.

Also, I'm actually getting dealt hands. I actually get dealt 88+ or A10suited+ several times in an 8 hour session. I'm also actually flopping sets maybe once every 8 hours on average. For a 100 hour period before this I would regularly go 8 hours without making anything stronger than one pair on the flop, and never getting dealt 88+ or A10suited+ preflop.
Great to hear. From your threads it looked like you were in some tough spots for awhile (AK flush draw on paired board in 3 bet pot thread with a turn decision, etc.)
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2011, 02:02 PM   #882
poke4fun
veteran
 
poke4fun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,191
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In other words, since you are consciously aware that you haven't changed anything, you are on an upswing.

I wouldn't be so quick to celebrate on simple variance.

I know it sounds sour, but I am speaking simple truth.
poke4fun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 12:33 AM   #883
BAEVentures
veteran
 
BAEVentures's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grind on da mind
Posts: 2,963
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

$2/5 STATS - WinRate

Just an update, been about two months.

392.75 hours of live $2/5 played since BF
$15,094 profit
$640 Expenses (gas/tolls)
67 hours of travel time
$38.43/hour on the tables
459.75/$14,454 = $31.44/hour after expenses and travel time

Hourly been dropping slightly, but I am still in recovery from a big downswing from about 2 months ago (dropped 10 buy-ins in 3 days). Thankfully, positive results in my very limited sample size of $5/10 has helped to improve my overall stats, but that data is not included here. Plan is to update next when I have 1000 hours clocked @ $2/5, but we'll see if I ever get there (plan is to be playing $5/10 full time by the end of the year).
BAEVentures is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2011, 01:28 AM   #884
DoGGz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DoGGz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: in the streets, in the lab
Posts: 17,315
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Just started playing some NL again and so far:

45 hours
$1800
40/hr

Will be putting in about 40 hours a week so we'll see where I gp fro here.
DoGGz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2011, 12:54 AM   #885
abgtr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sriracha
Posts: 5,862
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

been working on my game a ton. i've fixed some major leaks i've had. My AI-EV is majorly negative still.

That being said, I'm on a ridiculously unsustainable heater.

85 hours, $2230 profit.

Doesn't seem like that's going to keep up. It's been fun though. Nice to upswing after putting in significant work on your game.
abgtr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 01:05 PM   #886
NuklearWinter
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,724
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

my last 12 sessions of $2/3...

Hours [Win/Loss]
2.5 [166]
2 [997]
4 [172]
2 [408]
5.5 [-112]
5 [442]
5 [249]
2.5 [325]
6.5 [385]
2.5 [13]
7.25 [240]
8 [50]

total
52.75 hrs +3335

I played very badly the last game winning only $50.. should have been up $400+, but made at least 5 mistakes. Going to take a break, read some books/posts and refocus.
NuklearWinter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 01:23 PM   #887
ogabay
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 6g1p
Posts: 1,368
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Nice win %
ogabay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:22 PM   #888
miamicheats
i finance dead fish
 
miamicheats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: getting reverse bumhunted
Posts: 16,540
First post in this thread I think.

Month of august was soso , but 1 hand in 2 sessions cost me 3500 combined and booked losers instead of big wins. One well played and only left bc game broke. Other was a poorly played hand. Overall played pretty well. Fps on one occasion made a nice win into a small one. Only two losing sessions out of 9.

1/5 +55 6 hours
1/3 +530 9.7 hours
1/5 -800 8.1 hours (played a game)
2/5 +1335 4.4 hours
1/3 +400 4.3 hours
2/5 +38 3 hours (Fps)
2/5 +610 2 hours (friends went broke and ride was leaving )
2/5 -800 (played one hand horrid)
1/3 +3 9.4 hours

+1371 49.1 hours +27.92 per hour.
miamicheats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 08:09 PM   #889
Bo Goldman
adept
 
Bo Goldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 710
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Figured I would update my YTD results as I haven't updated since mid-May. At the bottom are excerpts with my results from my two previous posts in this thread. As always, I round my results for simplicity when posting on the forums.

If you don't remember much about me, or whatever. I'm employed full time, but, I play poker as a hobby 25-30 hours a week, mostly 2/5NL with some 5/10NL, and 2/5PLO mixed in. I'm not a very good player, but, I enjoy the game, and I enjoy being in the card room.

5/17/11 - 8/29/11: 325 hours, 60 sessions - $9800, $30ish/hr - $300ish comps, $6,000ish promotions.

I think I've been playing some of my best poker. I've focused a lot on toning down my aggression and playing a more solid in control game. I've really learned to take my ego out of the equation, and I've benefited by engaging in less battles with other good regulars.

I've also been fortunate to hit my first ever table share of the Bad Beat Jackpot, and I've done well in hitting some general casino promotions.

Aside from making some adjustments and tightening up my play, I believe my skill set seems to have plateaued. I feel like I have a lot of room for improvement, however, I'm having trouble actually improving. I haven't had an "aha" poker moment in forever.

I'd like to take the next step towards becoming a better player, however, I don't know what that step should be. It feels as if I keep grinding away, but, my ability isn't increasing relative to the hours I am putting in.

NEW 2011 YTD: 675 hours, 110 sessions - $16500, $25ish/hr - $600ish comps, $7,000ish promotions.

I hope everyone else is having a good year so far, and I hope we all finish strong.

BELOW are the old excerpts from posts with my data:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Goldman View Post
YTD 2011: 350 hours, 50 sessions - $6700, $20ish/hr - $300ish comps, $800ish promotions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Goldman View Post
2010 : 1050 hours, 200 sessions - $17000, $15ish/hr - $1,000ish in Comps, $2000 in promotions.

2009 : 900 hours, 150 sessions - $18000, $20ish/hr - $1,000ish in Comps, $5500 in promotions.
Bo Goldman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 09:11 PM   #890
LolPony
Pooh-Bah
 
LolPony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: @DeTalores
Posts: 4,124
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Little about me:
I'm 22, from Missouri and live about 10 minutes away from a casino that always has at least 2 games of 1/2nl, and getting a degree in computer sciences. I've played poker for quite a few years, but just recently started taking it seriously. I've payed for all of my semesters of college from cards, (before poker was an AP[blackjack]). But I quickly learned I could earn a much higher hourly playing poker.

I started out online with moderate success. Now since there isn't really any more online for US I'm playin 'ole B&M.

I started with an expendable $2400(in my bank account) to play $1/2. First trip I took $400 and luckily ran good so I never had to withdraw more. Since then I've logged 300 hours.

Current BR: $7217.48(A few withdraws for random expenses)

I play a pretty loose game pre-flop which means I get in to tons of marginal, confusing, and tricky spots post-flop.

Wanted to take some shots at 2/5nl which usually runs every weekend, except for this last weekend when I wanted to play

On a side note what do you guys think would be a good $ to take a few shots at 2/5 PLO 400min (obv none of the players know what they're doing)?

LolPony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 11:01 PM   #891
ogabay
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 6g1p
Posts: 1,368
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

LolPony, how big are the average stack sizes of the players on a typical 1/2 table?
ogabay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2011, 05:50 AM   #892
LolPony
Pooh-Bah
 
LolPony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: @DeTalores
Posts: 4,124
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogabay View Post
LolPony, how big are the average stack sizes of the players on a typical 1/2 table?
min buy in is $100.
So usually 1-2 players with ~100 5-6 ~200 1-2 ~300+.
Usually towards the end of my sessions it's not uncommon to have 3-4 stacks around 500+
LolPony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2011, 10:23 PM   #893
deesnuts
veteran
 
deesnuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Maltese
Posts: 2,958
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

End of the month update. All post BF 2-3-5 500max...

deesnuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2011, 11:38 PM   #894
NuklearWinter
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,724
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

this is turning into a sick brag thread. really nice stats last 4
NuklearWinter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 02:20 PM   #895
LolPony
Pooh-Bah
 
LolPony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: @DeTalores
Posts: 4,124
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuklearWinter View Post
this is turning into a sick brag thread. really nice stats last 4
Lol agreed.
deesnuts = ballin.
Pretty sick.
I like how my std deviation is higher than at 2/3/5 though ahhaha. I wonder why that is >.<
LolPony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 07:49 PM   #896
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,473
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by LolPony View Post
Little about me:
I'm 22, from Missouri and live about 10 minutes away from a casino that always has at least 2 games of 1/2nl, and getting a degree in computer sciences. I've played poker for quite a few years, but just recently started taking it seriously. I've payed for all of my semesters of college from cards, (before poker was an AP[blackjack]). But I quickly learned I could earn a much higher hourly playing poker.

I started out online with moderate success. Now since there isn't really any more online for US I'm playin 'ole B&M.

I started with an expendable $2400(in my bank account) to play $1/2. First trip I took $400 and luckily ran good so I never had to withdraw more. Since then I've logged 300 hours.

Current BR: $7217.48(A few withdraws for random expenses)

I play a pretty loose game pre-flop which means I get in to tons of marginal, confusing, and tricky spots post-flop.

Wanted to take some shots at 2/5nl which usually runs every weekend, except for this last weekend when I wanted to play

On a side note what do you guys think would be a good $ to take a few shots at 2/5 PLO 400min (obv none of the players know what they're doing)?

I would say take SHOTS at 12k. PLO with a bunch of crazies will increase your variance. If you loose like 3 BI go back down and win a little more at 1/2 to get confidence back and to reduce futher possible damage.

Just my opinion
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 08:56 PM   #897
yodachoda
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago IL suburbs
Posts: 2,936
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hey all. So here's my summary for 1/2:

~450 hours
~$5000 in profit
About $11/hour average.

I'm not happy with my average. For the first 50 hours or so, I got off to a strong start. Then, for the next 250 hours or so, I went up and down and up and down. I ran pretty bad I think but I'm not sure. I regularly went entire days without getting dealt anything decent. I went a 50 hour period once flopping zero sets, no exaggeration. I feel like I was "cheated" by the poker gods. For a 250 hour period or so, I wasn't being dealt AQ+, JJ+, or flopping sets NEARLY as often as I'm mathematically supposed to. I feel that lately (this summer), I've been running more normal. I'm averaging one or two sets every 8 hours, and I'm dealt QQ+ at least once per session. As a result, I've been destroying the game lately.

At this time, I changed a few things in my game slightly. I ditched the whole idea that this forum is so fold of, which is "small hand, small pot big hand big pot". If I think my one pair had a reasonable chance of being ahead, I'm pushing the action very strongly now. I've also focused more on paying attention to how villains are playing and adjusting to them. Sometimes I'll fold a powerful hand to a certain player but put tons of $ into a pot with TPWK against another villain.

Anyway, I've been doing better lately, won 10 sessions in a row. Seems like I've been averaging like $75/hour lately. Btw, how many hours till my win rate is a reliable indicator of my long term win rate?

And just 2k more to go before I can FINALLY move up to $2/5.
yodachoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 09:14 PM   #898
Bo Goldman
adept
 
Bo Goldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 710
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In response to the quotes post below:

You can infer a lot of things from your current win-rate now and you can use it to establish some ideas about your long term win-rate.

The problem is people on this forum are clueless, when it comes to these things. They mimic things over and over again like - you need XXXX hours, and you have only played XXXX hands. Blah blah blah, there is variance in poker we get it...

We can tell a lot about your potential win-rate and how it will compare to your current win-rate, by analyzing specific hands and your rationale for WHY you make decisions during hands. Don't look at results, look at how you got to the results.

Your 450 hours (25kish hands) is plenty large enough of a sample size to make an educated guess as to your win-rate. Not because we can determine statistically you are likely to have a win-rate of X with a confidence ratio of X, but, because we can tell if you are good at poker or not.

I mean seriously, do you really want to play 2,000 hours of 1/2NL? Then estimate your win-rate more accurately and determine if it is OK to move up? Screw that.

Play your best, as the bankroll builds, shot take aggressively.

Your bankroll is north of 5k, I'm assuming, since you have 5k profits and whatever your starting bankroll was. Take shots at 2/5NL now. Take a 3 buy-in shot. Immediately.

Put away the calculator, take off your nerd specs, pull out your tampon, and go play some poker. Stop worrying about results and numbers, and just aim to play your best and improve every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachoda View Post
Hey all. So here's my summary for 1/2:

~450 hours
~$5000 in profit
About $11/hour average.

.............

Btw, how many hours till my win rate is a reliable indicator of my long term win rate?

And just 2k more to go before I can FINALLY move up to $2/5.
Bo Goldman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 09:17 PM   #899
yodachoda
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago IL suburbs
Posts: 2,936
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Goldman View Post
In response to the quotes post below:

You can infer a lot of things from your current win-rate now and you can use it to establish some ideas about your long term win-rate.

The problem is people on this forum are clueless, when it comes to these things. They mimic things over and over again like - you need XXXX hours, and you have only played XXXX hands. Blah blah blah, there is variance in poker we get it...

We can tell a lot about your potential win-rate and how it will compare to your current win-rate, by analyzing specific hands and your rationale for WHY you make decisions during hands. Don't look at results, look at how you got to the results.

Your 450 hours (25kish hands) is plenty large enough of a sample size to make an educated guess as to your win-rate.

I mean seriously, do you really want to play 2,000 hours of 1/2NL? Then estimate your win-rate more accurately and determine if it is OK to move up? Screw that.

Play your best, as the bankroll builds, shot take aggressively.

Your bankroll is north of 5k, I'm assuming, since you have 5k profits and whatever your starting bankroll was. Take shots at 2/5NL now. Take a 3 buy-in shot. Immediately.
My bankroll is actually just a number written down on paper. Three fourths of a year ago I had $6k, and said to myself "$3000 will be my bankroll, the rest will be living expenses". Since then, I've spent about $5000 on tuition for college, gas, ect. I've also made $5000 so right now I only have $6000. But my "theoretical bankroll" is $8000, and I told myself I will move up to $2/5 when I hit $10000.

And what do you think of my game from my posts/threads? Think I'm "$2/5 material"? The place I play is tougher than most places I believe because it's not as big of a tourist destination than Vegas. I played in Vegas once and the game was very very wild, and I can see how terrible, weak tight, nut peddling nits can make a large profit in these games.

Last edited by yodachoda; 08-31-2011 at 09:27 PM.
yodachoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 09:27 PM   #900
Bo Goldman
adept
 
Bo Goldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 710
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

To address LolPony's point; Do Not take a shot at your casino's 2/5PLO game.

UNLESS, you actually are competent at playing PLO. Spectating a PLO game or seeing the same NL fish playing PLO, it is almost impossible to gauge their skill, if you are not competent at PLO.

I would advise against sitting in that game all together unless you are confident in your ability to play PLO.

PLO is a totally different game then NL, and while yes, basic poker theory carries over, and if you have sound logic and can reason about hands well, you can find success without experience. However, most people that jump into live PLO games without some PLO skillset, are often worse then the fish they followed from their NL tables into the game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LolPony View Post

On a side note what do you guys think would be a good $ to take a few shots at 2/5 PLO 400min (obv none of the players know what they're doing)?
Bo Goldman is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive