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Old 02-10-2015, 03:36 AM   #8926
Gilmour
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
I think your thing about only playing 1 BI is kinda silly too. I get tilted when I lose a lot too, trying to avoid that tilt makes sense, but think a 1 BI stoploss is going too far. You actually put more pressure on yourself when you are constantly against the edge of having to quit. If you ever thought "I don't want to pursue this spot because I don't want to lose my buyin" then your stop loss is costing you a lot.

My absolute minimum would be 2.5 BI. That's not a ton of money and having that available just puts me way at ease.
+1 DK

I have a 3 buyin stoploss (3 buyins 100 BB each), and that have been my main bankroll strategy for the last 2 years. Your absolutely correct about taking it too far and have a 1 buyin stoploss is absurdly enough putting _more_ pressure on your shoulders, not less.


It makes me more fearless with 3 buyins in my wallet,especially when i sit in a good and actiony wild game and dont want to leave- knowing that if i lose this flip or get a bad beat against a spewmonkey i can just reload and keep playing.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:47 AM   #8927
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Originally Posted by Gilmour View Post
+1 DK

I have a 3 buyin stoploss (3 buyins 100 BB each), and that have been my main bankroll strategy for the last 2 years. Your absolutely correct about taking it too far and have a 1 buyin stoploss is absurdly enough putting _more_ pressure on your shoulders, not less.


It makes me more fearless with 3 buyins in my wallet,especially when i sit in a good and actiony wild game and dont want to leave- knowing that if i lose this flip or get a bad beat against a spewmonkey i can just reload and keep playing.
Thanks for the advice guys!! I am reflecting on what you wrote and I think a 1BI stop loss might be a bit nitty. My reasoning behind it, is that i have a 3BI cash out rate as well. When I get to 800, I cash out, get on the dinner list, go grab a bite to eat, watch the degens, degen then jump back in another game.

I pay myself $12/hr regardless of win or loose, and if I log 160 hours on the month i give myself a 15% commission on everything won after expenses and hourly rate paid.

This way i encourage myself to play a decent amount, and I know I'm getting paid for the time I'm sitting, and this helps with tilt as well.

Thoughts and comments on this? Please no trolls, I am a financial services major and a student trying to make a well balanced game plan for success to float me for the next 2 years.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:54 AM   #8928
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You can for sure try loosening up on your stoploss, try 2 or even 3 buyins for a while and see how it goes for you. If you sit in a good game and have to quit after losing just 1 buyin its limiting your winning possibilities for sure and put a big handicap on your EV.

To me it have been a great mental training process also. When i started out playing i coudnt handle being stacked early in the game and because of that started playing bad and found myself reaching my 3 buyin stoploss several times.

Today my mental game is alot stronger and i feel like i can maintain my A or at least B game even when i fire my 3 bullet in the game. I know i beat the games i attend on a regular basis, and its all about dont forgetting that.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:03 AM   #8929
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Originally Posted by Gilmour View Post
You can for sure try loosening up on your stoploss, try 2 or even 3 buyins for a while and see how it goes for you. If you sit in a good game and have to quit after losing just 1 buyin its limiting your winning possibilities for sure and put a big handicap on your EV.

To me it have been a great mental training process also. When i started out playing i coudnt handle being stacked early in the game and because of that started playing bad and found myself reaching my 3 buyin stoploss several times.

Today my mental game is alot stronger and i feel like i can maintain my A or at least B game even when i fire my 3 bullet in the game. I know i beat the games i attend on a regular basis, and its all about dont forgetting that.
Thank you again for the feedback. I have spent a lot of time on my mental game and am proud of where I am at. I am able to hand 3-4x BI in a session but I find that with a starting bankroll of 20BI dropping 4BI in one session is a really tough spot to be in. Even if I am missing out on some really close calls, the boost I feel when banking a small cash is better than driving home stuck and in a ****ty mood.

This is not my first time around, but I am basically getting back on my feet after a 3 year hiatus on playing for a large source of my income. My confidence is not where is used to be and I am trying to keep from getting shook from a downswing.

Starting this venture with a 4 BI downswing has sucked, even though I have talk through hands with winning players and its obvious I played them correctly.

Please guys keep the advice rolling in, my brain is a sponge here. So much respect for guys that have been doing this for multiple years and succeeding
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:12 AM   #8930
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Thank you again for the feedback. I have spent a lot of time on my mental game and am proud of where I am at. I am able to hand 3-4x BI in a session but I find that with a starting bankroll of 20BI dropping 4BI in one session is a really tough spot to be in. Even if I am missing out on some really close calls, the boost I feel when banking a small cash is better than driving home stuck and in a ****ty mood.

This is not my first time around, but I am basically getting back on my feet after a 3 year hiatus on playing for a large source of my income. My confidence is not where is used to be and I am trying to keep from getting shook from a downswing.

Starting this venture with a 4 BI downswing has sucked, even though I have talk through hands with winning players and its obvious I played them correctly.

Please guys keep the advice rolling in, my brain is a sponge here. So much respect for guys that have been doing this for multiple years and succeeding

No problem, glad someone is getting something helpful out of my experiences.

Developing the mental aspect of the game is extremely important and is worth gold when you get better at it. Countless very skilled pokerplayers have gone busto or quit the game because they coudnt handle the swings and bad beats. Its not so much about trying to stay away from swings or downswings: its about learning to absorb them as smooth as possible when they do happen.

If you try too hard to avoid swings you are also probably not playing your A game and maximazing EV spots: that is a version of playing scared money if you see where i am going.

I mean when you flop a set and get it in with a flushdraw you are destined to lose that big allin pot approximately 3 out of 10 times. When you get your AA allin pre against a fish who cant manage to fold JJ when you 4 bet shove on him, he will suck out on you 2 out of 10 times. Its not possible to avoid it, so your only option is to learn to deal with the swings as smooth as possible.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:12 AM   #8931
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I've never even heard of a 1 buyin stop loss. That is crazy. You could be out in your first hand. I also like a three 100bb buyin stop loss but 2.4 buyins could work as well. Once you get used to it losing 3 buyins is no big deal. I used to have back to back 3 buyin losing sessions quite often from playing bad. Then I would just take a day or two off to refocus myself and get back to my winning ways.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:17 AM   #8932
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No problem, glad someone is getting something helpful out of my experiences.

Developing the mental aspect of the game is extremely important and is worth gold when you get better at it. Countless very skilled pokerplayers have gone busto or quit the game because they coudnt handle the swings and bad beats. Its not so much about trying to stay away from swings or downswings: its about learning to absorb them as smooth as possible when they do happen.

If you try too hard to avoid swings you are also probably not playing your A game and maximazing EV spots: that is a version of playing scared money if you see where i am going.

I mean when you flop a set and get it in with a flushdraw you are destined to lose that big allin pot approximately 3 out of 10 times. When you get your AA allin pre against a fish who cant manage to fold JJ when you 4 bet shove on him, he will suck out on you 2 out of 10 times. Its not possible to avoid it, so your only option is to learn to deal with the swings as smooth as possible.
Yes i see where you are going!! And i would have to agree, that this can be playing with scared money. I guess my goal is to build my roll to 6k, while paying myself and hourly rate with as little risk as possible.

Thank you for the calculations as well on how often I am going to win in those spots. This is a great refresher for me to keep close to the front of my mind. I am just trying to deal with being on the negative side of these statistics stated early on, which sucks, but will happen none the less.

It really amazes me how only three years away from playing full time, has weakened my ability to brush of a beat as part of the game.

I suppose i have some reconditioning to do mentally..
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:20 AM   #8933
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[QUOTE=NeverLosesAtPoker;46082931]I've never even heard of a 1 buyin stop loss. That is crazy. You could be out in your first hand. I also like a three 100bb buyin stop loss but 2.4 buyins could work as well. Once you get used to it losing 3 buyins is no big deal. I used to have back to back 3 buyin losing sessions quite often from playing bad. Then I would just take a day or two off to refocus myself and get back to my winning ways.[/QUOTE

Yes I am starting to see this might be crazy....However this is what the forums are for is talking constructively through viewpoints in order to reach the best strategy possible.

I think I have a valid, logical reason for my viewpoint. Conversely you do as well!!

Thanks for the guidance and letting me know what has worked best for you!!
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:23 AM   #8934
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I've never even heard of a 1 buyin stop loss. That is crazy. You could be out in your first hand. I also like a three 100bb buyin stop loss but 2.4 buyins could work as well. Once you get used to it losing 3 buyins is no big deal. I used to have back to back 3 buyin losing sessions quite often from playing bad. Then I would just take a day or two off to refocus myself and get back to my winning ways.
When learning to deal with these 3BI losses, what kind of bankroll were you working with, and at what level where you playing, blind wise?
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:33 AM   #8935
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When learning to deal with these 3BI losses, what kind of bankroll were you working with, and at what level where you playing, blind wise?
That was playing 2/5 full time with a $10k bankroll.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:35 AM   #8936
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I've always done a good job of keeping my living expenses low and don't have any other external leaks (don't gamble, don't do drugs, don't lend money, etc) so it was always just a matter of whether I would ever run through $10k at 2/5 and that was never in doubt.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:39 AM   #8937
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I've always done a good job of keeping my living expenses low and don't have any other external leaks (don't gamble, don't do drugs, don't lend money, etc) so it was always just a matter of whether I would ever run through $10k at 2/5 and that was never in doubt.
I agree i don't don't use drugs, don't play around in the pit nor do I loan money either. I suppose I just have to grin and bear it and keep on pounding
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:28 PM   #8938
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I've always done a good job of keeping my living expenses low and don't have any other external leaks (don't gamble, don't do drugs, don't lend money, etc) so it was always just a matter of whether I would ever run through $10k at 2/5 and that was never in doubt.
Despite no external leaks where you ever afraid of losing the 10K at 2/5 strictly due to bad variance?
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:15 PM   #8939
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You either have a much stronger soul than me, or never played poker for a living. Please try out a 15k poker roll (since 25k is way more than enough) go through a couple bad months at 2/5 500 or 1k max and come back and tell me how you are doing mentally when your only source of income is poker and your "income" is nonexistent. Have fun losing your house.

ya - ok champ. this is just about as silly of a statement as they come.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:05 PM   #8940
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I lost 2.5k this past weekend and felt like quitting forever.


Then I woke up the next morning and had to force myself not to go back.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:09 PM   #8941
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I lost 2.5k this past weekend and felt like quitting forever.
Standard

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Then I woke up the next morning and had to force myself not to go back.
Leak. Go back and play higher stakes ldo.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:12 PM   #8942
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I lost 2.5k this past weekend and felt like quitting forever.


Then I woke up the next morning and had to force myself not to go back.
I think you should just stake your girl instead.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:58 PM   #8943
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2 100bb buyin stop loss in crazy.... I usually implement at least 4 and it depends on the situation. I dont get upset if I get it in good. Its when I start to spew and make mistakes that I think stopping is required.

How are u able to get volume if u get 1 bad beat then a cooler and what u quit for the day? Taking a break is one thing but being done for the day I think is nuts.

Last edited by RainDownChips; 02-10-2015 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Added content
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:04 PM   #8944
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2 100bb buyin stop loss in crazy.... I usually implement at least 4 and it depends on the situation. I dont get upset if I get it in good. Its when I start to spew and make mistakes that I think stopping is required.

How are u able to get volume if u get 1 bad beat then a cooler and what u quit for the day? Taking a break is one thing but being done for the day I think is nuts.
I don't think anyone here would really argue for a hard stop-loss at 200bb.

At two buy-ins you should really just take a quick break, step back and evaluate your play. If you just got coolered and are mentally OK, then buy back in. If you're not playing your best it's probably a good time to leave.

At more than that, maybe 400bb, I'd think it's just time to leave. Hard stop loss. It's entirely possible that you're just overmatched but can't realize it.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:31 PM   #8945
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2 100bb buyin stop loss in crazy.... I usually implement at least 4 and it depends on the situation. I dont get upset if I get it in good. Its when I start to spew and make mistakes that I think stopping is required.

How are u able to get volume if u get 1 bad beat then a cooler and what u quit for the day? Taking a break is one thing but being done for the day I think is nuts.
I don't think its nuts. Its seems to me to be a low variance play. If I loose I loose, so what, poker will always be there I come back the next day and I can keep at it. For me, Its much easier to come back from a 1-2BI loss than 4-6BI. Maybe this isn't a correct mindset to have, but I know myself very well and that is an important part of my game is self control and balance.

Its quite easy to get volume in this way. I have been getting in volume this way for a long time and like I said, winning as well.

Occasionally I rebuy if action is good and my mind is in a good place.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:45 PM   #8946
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If I loose I loose,
Just like your mom. It's "lose", not "loose". Although playing loose will likely make you lose.


Quitting after losing a few BI is less of a leak than chasing losses when you have a bad image at the table. So leaving isn't all that bad.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:46 PM   #8947
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Despite no external leaks where you ever afraid of losing the 10K at 2/5 strictly due to bad variance?
No and that is despite me playing horribly at times. I did use a $1500 stop loss though so I never lost more than that in a single session. Also, the greater one's edge the less effect negative variance is likely to have. So, if your games are tough you may need a larger bankroll. FWIW, I recommend that everyone is overrolled but obviously that isn't always feasible especially at first.
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Old 02-10-2015, 04:49 PM   #8948
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Nothing quite like taking a 500bb loss and not feeling much different on the drive home as a +500bb win. G-bucks ftw.

As long as game is good and you are not tilting/tired, no reason to have a stop loss imo.

I don't think it's "low variance" to set a stop loss... Purely a mental game consideration imo.
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Old 02-10-2015, 05:56 PM   #8949
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ya - ok champ. this is just about as silly of a statement as they come.
hmmmmmm my read is that you think that poast is not a cool story bro situation?
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:53 PM   #8950
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It could actually be higher variance to have a quick stop
Loss. If you're cutting volume in a good game when you could still have your edge then your accepting a 2 BI swing when staying longer might get back to even.


Less hands=more variance.
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