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Old 02-09-2015, 12:37 AM   #8901
kekeeke
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by oldschool_vegas View Post
I've grinded up 100 $1/2 buyins in about a year. The more I play I realize how far I've come, but I also realize how much I need to learn and continue to practice to become a good player. I don't consider myself a good player, but everyone is so terrible at this game, I don't have to be good to be a winner at $1/2.

I'm going to definitely now be playing $2/5 with a rule that I can never buy in to $2/5 if it puts me below 100 $1/2 buy-ins. I feel like the difficulty of $2/5 will be a tad above $1/2, so if I'm a winner at $1/2 I'll be a winner at $2/5.

The only thing is, that I know I'll be making mistakes, and I'll know I'll be using $2/5 as a learning medium, I feel kind of dirty spewing $500-$1500 because of ******ed decisions vs $200-600. But I guess it's not about the money but the BBs lost and won. In both cases it's the same BB lost because I ****ed up.

Should I just shoot for 200 $1/2 BI? Is a year and about 1000 hours of live play enough to know you're a winner or am I still risking ruin? I know I've gotten lucky a **** ton of times, but I've also gotten unlucky about the same.

With out a DB I can't see if I'm running under or above EV.

Anyway, DAE feel like a noob at poker even though beat your limit?
I dunno, I think I'm pretty good. Been crushing so far this year.

Obv you are also pretty good, solid results. 100 bi in 1000hours is 20 bucks an hour. Nobody can pull off a winrate like that on variance alone. And of course if you focus your mental energy on "I know I'll make mistakes and spew off 1500 at 2/5", then that is exactly what is going to happen.

Sounds like you need to build a winner self-esteem/self-image at 2/5. There is only a couple of ways to achieve this : play more 2/5 on your A game, so your brain becomes used to being a winner at this stake. Or tell your brain you already are a winner at 2/5, everyday, multiple times a day and that you make profitable, consistent +EV plays because it is " just like you" to make those plays. Writing this down is also key.

May your villains not be lucky
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Old 02-09-2015, 04:40 AM   #8902
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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No, but you can live in Dallas. OKC might be a good place to live, I don't know (all my OU buddies rave about how great Norman is and that's an OKC suburb). A lot of people would never want to live in Vegas. I was simply naming the places that I believe have better games. Some are more livable than others

Just FYI, I live in Tulsa and the market here is not great at all except maybe on weekends.

Played in Norman several times. Weeknight 2/5 is two reg infested tables. Again, weekends are better, but my hunch would be that Vegas is still better games than OKC overall.

WinStar (Thackerville/Dallas) is where the real action is at when people refer to Oklahoma poker market.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:08 PM   #8903
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Can someone please help me with a couple questions. I haven't played live in a long time and was pondering the thought of moving to Florida or Las Vegas to play 2/5.
1) Would 10k living expenses and 25k poker bankroll be enough for a stable roll. I have mostly played MTTs/SNGs online but, always found live poker in Vegas and other places extremely soft. I imagine there would be a learning curve so want to be very sufficiently rolled.
2)Online has gotten a lot more difficult over the years has live poker gotten more difficult over the past 3-4 years?
3)What kind of yearly profit could a solid 2/5 players working 40-50 hours make a year?
4) What are the main downfalls to playing live professionally?

Any help would be greatly appreciated
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:47 PM   #8904
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

No one can really say if that is enough. If you are a solid player then yes 25k is enough if you are playing 500 max. If you are playing 1k or uncapped... It might be a little iffy.
On the other hand, I don't understand these questions, you should be the best judgement of your skill level and how much you should need. Also I do not recommend making a life changing move to play poker if you never have actually played poker for a living before. It is much harder than most people think.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:08 PM   #8905
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

For the purposes of grinding live 2/5 NL, a 10k life roll and a 25k poker roll is definitely more than enough for you to be well-rolled...ASSUMING that you are a winning player at live 2/5 NL.

Don't worry about people who say that you need a larger bankroll for 2/5 NL 1k cap games versus 2/5 NL 500 cap games. The only time that you need a larger bankroll for the deeper 2/5 NL games (1k cap or deeper) is when those deeper games play with frequent straddles.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:08 PM   #8906
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I have been playing professionally for around 7 years but 99% of that has been online. My only live experience has been some wsop events and 30-35 times playing 2/5-5/10 cash games which were the incredible soft. Main reason why I am thinking about trying to switch to live poker is online has become a lot harder over the past few years with the player pool shrinking, lower rois and living outside the United States. The future looks bleak for online so it is either go back to school or try live poker for a profession.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:09 PM   #8907
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Where are you now? What is your live experience like? How much can you be making in other endeavors? How much have you played FR? Are you going to be like most MTT/SnG players (including me) and be way too aggro when you start out to play live, causing a lot of variance? What is a decent lifestyle to you?

All of those questions need to be answered to answer just your roll question.

As for #2, it gotten a bit harder, but nowhere near as much harder as online has.

3) General rule of thumb is about $35/hour

4) https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...g-pro-1426688/
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:10 PM   #8908
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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No one can really say if that is enough. If you are a solid player then yes 25k is enough if you are playing 500 max. If you are playing 1k or uncapped... It might be a little iffy.
I disagree with the above. 10k life roll with 25k poker roll is way more than enough for a winning player at even live 2/5 NL uncapped games. The only way that a 25k poker roll would be "iffy" at a live 2/5 NL uncapped game is if that particular live 2/5 NL uncapped game was playing with a mandatory $10 straddle (in which case, it is actually a 2/5/10 NL game).

Cliff Notes: Jump into the live 2/5 NL games immediately as long as you are a winning player.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:12 PM   #8909
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Missed a couple of posts while typing up the above. If you've been a pro in the tournament game, you understand variance better than most prospective pros.

I'd think about doing the school & poker option. Find a school in a decent poker market and use your poker to pay for it. I doubt that you want to be a cash grinder for life...
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:25 PM   #8910
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Missed a couple of posts while typing up the above. If you've been a pro in the tournament game, you understand variance better than most prospective pros.

I'd think about doing the school & poker option. Find a school in a decent poker market and use your poker to pay for it. I doubt that you want to be a cash grinder for life...
Thanks for the advice. I think I am starting to lean this way more and more. A happy life from poker seems more difficult than ever and I doubt online poker is ever going to thrive again. Just so difficult figuring out what to do in life I finished my bachelors degree 5 years ago so guess I should get my masters.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:29 PM   #8911
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

So, where are you now? What is you bachelor's in? What would you want a Master's in?
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:40 PM   #8912
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I have been living in Mexico/Canada since bf . Right now I am visiting parents in Illinois and receiving medical treatment from a bad eye infection. The school i graduated from was called North Central College. My degree was Marketing and minor in business management. I am unsure what I would want to get my Masters in (so confused). The same school offers graduate classes for only 1/10 of the undergrad fee. I have been playing poker since I was 20 or so making great money till the last 2 years now I feel I am immature hardly responsible and probably need a new route to find happiness.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:15 PM   #8913
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Def sounds like you don't want to do the corporate grind, so not sure I'd continue at same school, unless they have Masters other than MBA.

What are you passionate about? There are a lot of folks who used their poker to finance (for example) med school, small business ventures, etc.

I def don't think that there are many who are happy as life-long cash grinders. It beats delivering pizzas when you're in your 20s, but it's only a life long passion for a very few.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:31 PM   #8914
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

One of the major point that makes me very attracted to poker was it's potiential to be a self-funding, deep, competitive hobby.

Now after many many hands I am still very attracted to it because it might just be an escape to the ****ty 9 to 5(oops I mean 7 to 5 now) work for someone else, fund your gov so they can take care of single moms who don't need no man. Reading post by people who've "made it" as pros for 5-7years is depressing. There is 2 side to a medal indeed.

Focusing 100% on poker can be really soulcrushing I guess, because poker as a 10-15hours a week hobby is incredibly fun. Is the shift from 15 hours to 30+ hours really this bad? Is it the massive changes the mindset has when you now "need" to be a winner? Is every suckout wearing everyone to the point where you just get tired of it?
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:23 AM   #8915
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I was an online pro pre-bf. Played for a living for about 7 years. So I am very much used to bad beats swings etc. In fact towards the end of my career, my standard daily swings were +-8kish. ( super turbos)

I always had an itch to try to see what I could do live after bf, never got around to putting substantial hours though. ( casino is about an hour drive, which may be a big part of my issue below, not sure.

This year I planned to play 1500 live hours starting small stakes 5/5.
After 1week of straight grinding, about 40 hours, even though I was + 3k or so, taking a few bad beats in a row , coupled with having to be around some of the most miserable unhappy people for hours , quickly shined a light on me to just keep it to a hobby for the future, or play online instead (USA). Because instead of being excited to go own some souls and make some $, I was thinking ugh , I wonder what scumbags are gonna be at the table today. It just wore me down very very fast, I was shocked that after only that many hours that it effected me.

This is why I have a lot of respect for the pros with the goal threads. Although live is so much easier than online , it seems so much mentally tougher overall.
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:27 AM   #8916
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by kekeeke View Post
Focusing 100% on poker can be really soulcrushing I guess, because poker as a 10-15hours a week hobby is incredibly fun. Is the shift from 15 hours to 30+ hours really this bad? Is it the massive changes the mindset has when you now "need" to be a winner? Is every suckout wearing everyone to the point where you just get tired of it?
Yes.

Can't speak to the pressure of needing to win, but I used to try to push myself to play more and my game suffered a LOT when I did. I was playing 60-80 hours a month, so just a 3-4 hour session every other day or so. Tried to stretch those 3-4 hours into 5-6, tried to squeeze in extra days, and the wheels came right off. Was a modest winner, but when I tried playing more I just spewed. And then I'd feel glum after spewing and take a week off, making it even more of a waste.

It's so, so much easier when you can just play when you feel like it. Lately I'm getting 50-60 hours a month doing that and it's great. I like playing, I don't spew, I make decent money. It's fun, as it should be.

I would guess that adding volume is the least challenging part mentally, and I couldn't even handle that. It takes a really, really strong player to make it as a pro.
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:49 AM   #8917
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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1) Would 10k living expenses and 25k poker bankroll be enough for a stable roll. I have mostly played MTTs/SNGs online but, always found live poker in Vegas and other places extremely soft. I imagine there would be a learning curve so want to be very sufficiently rolled.
You are way overrolled. That's a good thing, IMO. To be honest, most grinders I know are always borderline busto, and that includes crushers.

I think a 10k roll is sufficient for 2/5. I've never gotten close to losing that much at 2/5.

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2)Online has gotten a lot more difficult over the years has live poker gotten more difficult over the past 3-4 years?
Certainly not to the degree of online. There are always new 2/5 grinders coming up and I want to say the games are tougher but then I'm reminded of the number of good grinders that have left the game to pursue other opportunities and to me that makes it a bit of a wash. The rec players continue to be horrible. The 5/10 where I play has definitely gotten much tougher than it was several years ago but it's not horrible or anything.

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3)What kind of yearly profit could a solid 2/5 players working 40-50 hours make a year?
I wouldn't even want to speculate. It depends how good you are.

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4) What are the main downfalls to playing live professionally?
Boredom. Gambling pressures. Being around degenerates. Being a target to get robbed.
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:29 AM   #8918
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I disagree with the above. 10k life roll with 25k poker roll is way more than enough for a winning player at even live 2/5 NL uncapped games. The only way that a 25k poker roll would be "iffy" at a live 2/5 NL uncapped game is if that particular live 2/5 NL uncapped game was playing with a mandatory $10 straddle (in which case, it is actually a 2/5/10 NL game).

Cliff Notes: Jump into the live 2/5 NL games immediately as long as you are a winning player.
You either have a much stronger soul than me, or never played poker for a living. Please try out a 15k poker roll (since 25k is way more than enough) go through a couple bad months at 2/5 500 or 1k max and come back and tell me how you are doing mentally when your only source of income is poker and your "income" is nonexistent. Have fun losing your house.
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:34 AM   #8919
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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You either have a much stronger soul than me, or never played poker for a living. Please try out a 15k poker roll (since 25k is way more than enough) go through a couple bad months at 2/5 500 or 1k max and come back and tell me how you are doing mentally when your only source of income is poker and your "income" is nonexistent. Have fun losing your house.


You may not know this but ATsai is known as one of the best live grinders in the LA area and as far as i know have had poker as a part time/full time income for a long time. He also does coaching.

So the guy for sure know what he is talking about when it comes to bankroll size and bankrollmanagement.
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:35 AM   #8920
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Are you saying you went through 15k in 2 months of 2/5 or $25k? Both seem pretty damn high. Unfortunately I run too good to have 2 bad months in a row so I probably shouldn't even comment.
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:46 AM   #8921
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No I have never went thru 15k at 2/5. I am just saying for an average player trying to play for a living will have a very hard time. It is not easy, and I'm assuming he isn't going to go in and be a crusher of the game from day 1. If he is a seasoned player, he should know 15k roll is not sufficient for a player just starting out live. There are a lot of growing pains when trying to play live for a living. He most likely will have problems and deamons he never knew he had and those can be a very expensive lesson.
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Old 02-10-2015, 02:47 AM   #8922
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hey guys, I have just started back playing for a large part of my income after taking a 3 year break. I played full time, from 2006-2011, kept excellent records and was a winning player over that stretch. During that time I averaged around 60 hours or so a week live @ 1/2 & 2/5 and played with a bankroll most of the time around 50BI @ 200NL and 20BI @ 500NL, of course the levels fluctuated but I'm just giving this information for the back ground info.

I started playing again around a year ago (seriously) and worked some of the kinks out of my game, and got back to a win rate of around $26/hour over a 300 hour sample size.

I was wondering since i haven't played full time in a few years, what the average downswing most players are experiencing @ 200NL live, full ring? I try to game select rigorously, play a TAG style unless the table dictates otherwise, and generally make wise decisions. I never fire more than 1 bullet unless players and action make it a smart and profitable move to keep playing. Im current playing with 20BI @ 200NL.

The games have changed quite a bit and I want some feedback on what others are experiencing at this level.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:12 AM   #8923
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I've been stuck $1k in a session at 1/2 multiple times over my last 150 hours. Because I was at a great table obviously.

If you avoid tables where everyone is splashing around 300bb+ deep I think it'd be pretty hard to lose more than 2k without spewing. But why would you do that?
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:22 AM   #8924
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Im down around 4 buy ins over the past week, and i guess I've just forgotten how in feels to loose 5 session in a row without making any huge mistakes. I know, I know, "4BI is not that big" but at the start of my venture it sucks to make that drive home stuck night after night....
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:30 AM   #8925
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I think your thing about only playing 1 BI is kinda silly too. I get tilted when I lose a lot too, trying to avoid that tilt makes sense, but think a 1 BI stoploss is going too far. You actually put more pressure on yourself when you are constantly against the edge of having to quit. If you ever thought "I don't want to pursue this spot because I don't want to lose my buyin" then your stop loss is costing you a lot.

My absolute minimum would be 2.5 BI. That's not a ton of money and having that available just puts me way at ease.
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