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Old 01-12-2015, 09:20 PM   #8576
lukeamac
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Question is then, do you think people that leave to protect their win feel the same way?
Not sure you can't be so broad. A thinking player would take into consideration many things as to whether to stay and play or not (here's a couple):
  • Is it a good game?
  • Are you tired?
  • Playing A Game?

I think, there would be some that are as you say "protecting a win" others would take into consideration not the amount they are winning or losing but many factors.

Cheers Mac
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:22 PM   #8577
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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If you're beating 25NL online, shouldn't be a problem to crush any 1/2 live, especially where you're playing.
Yeah but I dont have a roll for 1/2 yet. I have like 1k to grind with. Do you think it would be worth it to play a 1/1 80$ max buy in, or would it be better to stay online til I have at least 10 buy ins for 1/2?
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:27 PM   #8578
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Yeah but I dont have a roll for 1/2 yet. I have like 1k to grind with. Do you think it would be worth it to play a 1/1 80$ max buy in, or would it be better to stay online til I have at least 10 buy ins for 1/2?
Play 1/2, you will crush the game even with such a small roll.
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:33 PM   #8579
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by JERRYJ0NES View Post
Yeah but I dont have a roll for 1/2 yet. I have like 1k to grind with. Do you think it would be worth it to play a 1/1 80$ max buy in, or would it be better to stay online til I have at least 10 buy ins for 1/2?
Sure you do. You really don't need $4k to start playing $1/2. Just start.

$80 max 1/1 games are completely ****ing awful. There's no money to be made there and the rake is insane.

Just sit down with $200 and another $400 in your pocket and see how it goes.
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:34 PM   #8580
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Sure you do. You really don't need $4k to start playing $1/2. Just start.

$80 max 1/1 games are completely ****ing awful. There's no money to be made there and the rake is insane.

Just sit down with $200 and another $400 in your pocket and see how it goes.
+1
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:36 PM   #8581
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Thanks guys. Gonna take a shot friday.
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:37 PM   #8582
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Thanks guys. Gonna take a shot friday.
Let us know how you go!

Cheers Mac
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:49 PM   #8583
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by JERRYJ0NES View Post
Yeah but I dont have a roll for 1/2 yet. I have like 1k to grind with. Do you think it would be worth it to play a 1/1 80$ max buy in, or would it be better to stay online til I have at least 10 buy ins for 1/2?
You could do either as a test. You will PROBABLY be fine, but these people saying go for it at the 1/2 are glossing over the possibility of miserable run bad which could devastate your roll...probably because they do not appreciate the value of 1K and would just replenish that from other means if things didn't go well at first. I'm guessing the 1/1 $80 game is not great value, but you could use it to get the feel for playing live without risking too much of your roll. Then, move to the 1/2 when you are more comfortable playing live. Live play is really bad, but you may need to make a few adjustments to what you are used to. I imagine your skills are beyond what you need to play 1/2, but your roll is NOT invulnerable to run bad.

good luck at the tables!
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:51 PM   #8584
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Originally Posted by JERRYJ0NES View Post
Thanks guys. Gonna take a shot friday.
Just make sure to re-adjust your expectations. Live $1/2 games play a little differently than many online games. The initial raises are larger, calling ranges are wider, 3-bet rangers are tighter, and players all tend to be *extreme* in their tendencies. Go read some of the stickied threads.
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:55 PM   #8585
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Take it slow on a short roll. You can even short buy. I'm actually not against the 1/1 game, as it will be even softer (?), and get you used to playing live. Even if your likely win rate is less than half of the 1/2 game, your ROR is probably 1/10th.

That being said, if you can beat 25nl dropping 3 buyins at 1/2 nl is not particularly likely.
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Old 01-12-2015, 09:55 PM   #8586
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You could do either as a test. You will PROBABLY be fine, but these people saying go for it at the 1/2 are glossing over the possibility of miserable run bad which could devastate your roll...probably because they do not appreciate the value of 1K and would just replenish that from other means if things didn't go well at first.
He already has a means of slowly "grinding" up a $4k roll, so the money is replaceable anyway.

I'd rather take the shot now, maybe lose the $1k, but probably win a bit and build a roll a lot faster. Waiting until he's got $4k still leaves the same chance that he'll donk/run-bad off the first $1k anyway, and sacrifices the better winrate he should show at $1/2 live over the low stakes online grind.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:03 PM   #8587
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm in the 1/2 camp. Just take your shot. The game is stupid easy and if you drop a buy in or two you can drop down or quit for a bit. The time lost playing silly 1/1 games is not worth the slightly higher ROR of 1/2. It's all really a race to get to 2/5 and above anyway. The games aren't that much tougher until you reach 5/T at least depending on locale.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:19 AM   #8588
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

1k is plenty of money to take a shot at 1/2. Good luck.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:30 AM   #8589
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Ive been grinding on bovada 25nl, but I want to get into live poker. I live in tampa which is a decent poker town. I dont have 4k for 200nl (more like 1k) but one of my local room spreads a 1/1 NL 80$ max buy in. Do you think Id be better off grinding that til I get enough to shot take 200nl or just stay online for now til i get a proper live roll? Any advice would be helpful.
Go right into 1/2 live. Play tight and try not to get involved in big pots until you have some reads and are comfortable. You should have no problem crushing. Value bet and watch them call you to the river with middle pair or TPWK.
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:30 AM   #8590
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Variance is a B*

KK < QQ all in pre-flop vs. drunk guy in $600+ pot he had just rebought for $300 after spraying off twice that amount over several hours. My kings were wayyyyy ahead of his range.

3s full < 555 all in on turn in approx. $900 pot. This one I wasn't sure about and really hesitated before committing to the all in with the 3s full. I had a brief moment of relief when he turned over 45, but bink...river 5.

777 < Q5 flush draw all in on flop for approx. $350 pot.

I am a rec player who doesn't put in a ton of volume. If the above pots went my way, I like to think I'd have had a pretty good year. As it was, I won about $65 this past year. But if these pots had happened a little closer together, I'd have had a pretty BAD year is all I'm trying to say to jerryjones and his 1K bankroll. Even though I agree he should go ahead and give it a try. BS happens though.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:19 AM   #8591
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Any pro shortstacks here? Curious how the higher stakes(2/5, 5/10) players adapt to a pro short stack.

I mean someone with an in-depth understanding of fold equity, pot odds and the like.

I play deep stacked 1/2 now that I am more comfortable- and convinced value betting is the way to crush LLSNL, but sometimes will short stack and find it extremely effective aside from the rake. The players have zero concept of what you are doing, or why you are shoving your entire 30BB stack following 6 limps in a straddled pot with AK on the button.

Given that I have never once in over 200 hours of 1/2 seen a legitimate short stacker, or someone who understands not to play back at me, I really wonder if it would give these higher stakes guys trouble. At least until they realized what you were doing. I have seen people regularly stack off in some of the 2/5 games with 22,33,44 type hands, definitely a short stacks dream.

Basically I only play 88+, AQ+ when short stacking with a slightly wider range on the button only. In a FR game I fold AQo in EP.

The only issue I've seen is that most of the 2/5 tables have a min buyin of $200 around here. 40BB is too much. If there were some with a $150 30BB buyin that would definitely be a lot more short stack friendly.

I assume optimal strategy at the higher stakes games would be to rathole as well, unless the game was really soft and you felt comfortable deep stacked.

I have messed around online a bit shortstack ratholing 50NL and 100NL with 30BB min buyins. Over 10k hands it is very profitable. Due to the lack of information on pro short stacking I kind of based this strategy on some stuff from Colin Moshman's SnG book and Ed Miller' basic SS strategy.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:31 AM   #8592
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Filthy short stacking scum
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:43 AM   #8593
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That strategy would work quite well at a soft 5/10 game because players don't easily fold to raises. At 2/5 a short stacker can pick spots to steal chips...like if a villain is raising pretty wide and gets a few callers then you can go over top and most of the time you will get all that dead money. However, at 5/10 a player could be opening really wide and when you go over top he will just go ahead and call you with his j8off.

Just to put it in perspective, last week I was down to my last $200 in a 5/10 game. Two limpers and I make it $75 on the button with AJoff. Both call me instantly. Flop AKQ rainbow. Checked to me and I'm all in for $125. Player 1 instacalls. Player 2 is insta all-in for $600+ total. Player 1 tanks, tanks, and tanks some more. Finally player 1 calls. Turn Ace. River T. Player 2 had KQ. Player 1 had J9off and we chopped the main pot and he took the side pot. You can't make this stuff up.

On a side note, I went on a bit of a heater and ended up running that $200 up to $6.4k in a few hours time.

However, most of the games are 50bbs minimum (possibly 25bb short buy after getting stacked). You can certainly employ a short stack strategy when you lose chips though rather than topping off.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:44 AM   #8594
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by JERRYJ0NES View Post
Ive been grinding on bovada 25nl, but I want to get into live poker. I live in tampa which is a decent poker town. I dont have 4k for 200nl (more like 1k) but one of my local room spreads a 1/1 NL 80$ max buy in. Do you think Id be better off grinding that til I get enough to shot take 200nl or just stay online for now til i get a proper live roll? Any advice would be helpful.
I jumped out of my chair when I read "decent poker town." Tampa is a gold mine. You don't even need a roll. Small stakes has so many more upswings than downswings and the downswings are so far from severe. I never separated my "poker" from my "life" money. I hate those terms. Just start playing.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:45 AM   #8595
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Thanks for all of the help guys! Im going to take a shot at it friday after work.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:13 AM   #8596
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I mean, if you're shortstacking you're never getting invited to home games and just killing any potential good hourly. Your winnings come from winning big pots. Sure, you can be profitable shortstacking 2/5 or 5/10. But can you have a $30 hourly at 2/5 when you're buying in for $200? I very, very much doubt it or even wonder the point of it. Shortstacking is profitable online because you're playing a ton of tables. When you can only play one, its just a handicap and nothing more.

Sorry, when you get a monster vs the fish, you're not happy that it's a great squeeze spot and you can get your last $150 in PF vs being $2k deep when they're sitting on the same.
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:14 AM   #8597
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Filthy short stacking scum
This
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:39 AM   #8598
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Any pro shortstacks here? Curious how the higher stakes(2/5, 5/10) players adapt to a pro short stack.
I have never seen a good short stacker live. In fact the $40 gangstas seem to go out of their way to play their stack the complete opposite of how a short stacker should play. STraddling, calling raises (which is usually 25% of their stack) with sc, random ax. Calling a turn or river bet for almost all of their chips and not shoving the last $4 they have for some reason.

But to answer your question, at a table where there are a lot of 100bb stacks and just a short stack, you are largely ignored. For example in a multiway pot where you are the short stack, from your pov during the hand they will be making mistakes vs your stack, while from their pov they could still be playing optimally vs the other big stack in the pot.

Again, I've never seen this live though, that is a short stack playing like a short stack should. I imagine because someone who can learn to play a short stack optimally at 1/2 2/5 could also learn to play a basic winning game for a higher winrate buying in full. And at 5/10, I can't even imagine the headache of ratholing or trying to transfer to another table after hitting, especially as there are very few 5/t tables usually running.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:40 AM   #8599
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by JERRYJ0NES View Post
Yeah but I dont have a roll for 1/2 yet. I have like 1k to grind with. Do you think it would be worth it to play a 1/1 80$ max buy in, or would it be better to stay online til I have at least 10 buy ins for 1/2?
Not to burst anyone's bubble here but No one is grinding up a roll from 1/2. If you wanna shot take buy in for 50bb at 2/5 and if the run good rolls you will be set. I probably have more hands of 50bb NL than most anyone live and online. No one adjusts to your stack size or strat. If you know how to handle the shorter stack you will crush. Playing the bigger game with the higher implied odds makes it a no brainer.
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:59 AM   #8600
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

Sure you can build a roll at 1/2. No one can live-large-off-of-and-build-a-roll at 1/2... but I don't think that was the question. If you aren't spending the winnings and have time to give, 1/2 & 1/3 are a great way to grind up a few thousand.
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