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Old 10-10-2014, 07:51 AM   #8026
Aleksei
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by GatorXP View Post
Maybe poker isnt the game for someone with guilt issues.
Poker is unabashedly predatory. It's not really any more predatory than any corporate environment (and less so than some), but it's more openly predatory.

The problem is that there aren't many ways to make a living that aren't predatory.
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Old 10-10-2014, 08:32 AM   #8027
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

FWIW I was just playing Devil's Advocate, personally I have no issue with it, 100% on 2/5+. Slight amount of guilt stacking alkies there for the free or served beyond state's last call alcohol at 1/2.
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Old 10-10-2014, 08:45 AM   #8028
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by homerdash View Post
FWIW I was just playing Devil's Advocate, personally I have no issue with it, 100% on 2/5+. Slight amount of guilt stacking alkies there for the free or served beyond state's last call alcohol at 1/2.
Think of it this way: If you take their money at the table, they can't spend it on liquor or drugs. Gambling is probably the least harmful of their addictions -- the only harm done is to their wallets.
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Old 10-12-2014, 01:50 AM   #8029
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

What's the cash out rule? Roll at $8500. $1200 on table covered in several spots. Book it?
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Old 10-12-2014, 01:55 AM   #8030
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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What's the cash out rule? Roll at $8500. $1200 on table covered in several spots. Book it?
All in
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Old 10-12-2014, 02:10 AM   #8031
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
What's the cash out rule? Roll at $8500. $1200 on table covered in several spots. Book it?
Shove low PP pre hoping to get an equity advantage on AK and AQ.
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Old 10-12-2014, 05:20 PM   #8032
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
What's the cash out rule? Roll at $8500. $1200 on table covered in several spots. Book it?
Depends what level you are playing and how much you bought in for. If you bought in for $500 at 5/10 you can leave but if you bought in at $1k, $200 queso no bueno.
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:48 PM   #8033
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I recently gave up my job; not to play poker you understand but because I just hated doing that particular job. Anyway, I managed to save a fair amount from it and to help pay the rent and the bills etc I've consequently been mainly playing £1/£2 cash game poker around London (Empire, Vic, Hippo) with a little £1/£3 and £2/£5 thrown in.

Over the last six months (since taking the game a lot more seriously) it's worked out reasonably well but on average I'm falling a few hundred short of my monthly-nut. (Putting in more hours and being even more disciplined is something I'm working on.) I've been playing poker for years and am loving the lifestyle of a low-stakes cash-game grinder. Although the lonely nocturnal life is a bit weird it is infinitely more satisfying than the soul-destroying 9-5 job that I had before. Anyway, I digress...

The thing is, I really want to move up to £2/£5 on a more stable/long-term basis but don't know if my bankroll is enough. Of the dozen or so times I've played £2/£5, I've always had quite "snug" sessions and never felt uneasy. I usually buy in for around £800-£1k.

My question is, based on this background, how much of a bankroll do you think is reasonable in order to comfortably transition from the £1/£2 to the £2/£5 game?

P.S. Please, no "if you need to ask then you're not ready" answers. I would just like to be given some guidance by experienced 2+2ers who are in-the-know and would like to help.

Any help and advice would be great!
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Old 10-15-2014, 01:16 AM   #8034
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
Over the last six months (since taking the game a lot more seriously) it's worked out reasonably well but on average I'm falling a few hundred short of my monthly-nut. (Putting in more hours and being even more disciplined is something I'm working on.) I've been playing poker for years and am loving the lifestyle of a low-stakes cash-game grinder. Although the lonely nocturnal life is a bit weird it is infinitely more satisfying than the soul-destroying 9-5 job that I had before. Anyway, I digress...
It's kind of like comparing apple to orange. Try playing poker for a living when your livelihood depends on it. In a 9-5 job, you will at least know that you'll have a paycheck that can put food on the table at end of the day. Poker, not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
The thing is, I really want to move up to £2/£5 on a more stable/long-term basis but don't know if my bankroll is enough. Of the dozen or so times I've played £2/£5, I've always had quite "snug" sessions and never felt uneasy. I usually buy in for around £800-£1k.
Perhaps it's because you had a job.

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Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
My question is, based on this background, how much of a bankroll do you think is reasonable in order to comfortably transition from the £1/£2 to the £2/£5 game?
You're trying to run before you even get a sense of how to crawl. Play for 6 months in 1/2 and see how things go, then whether to play 2/5 won't even really be a question.

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Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
P.S. Please, no "if you need to ask then you're not ready" answers. I would just like to be given some guidance by experienced 2+2ers who are in-the-know and would like to help.
How many actual full-time player would post a response? Probably zero.
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Old 10-15-2014, 10:35 AM   #8035
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Thanks for responding Richard but your reply is about as useful as a chocolate tea-pot and riddled with the same cliched, bog-standard answers given to novices just starting out. With all due respect, it comes across as bordering on the patronising. I am a veteran player who's been playing 1/2 for many years but who's recently had enough time on his hands to study the game more intensely and to take the game serious enough to consider moving up to 2/5.

My question is not based around whether I am ready to play 2/5 but what a reasonable bankroll would be to be able to play 2/5 comfortably considering my background. Additionally, I'm baffled as to why full-time players wouldn't respond as I'm under the impression that 2+2 is a forum where such players contribute and that this thread is precisely here for the purpose of fellow players helping each other out.
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:11 AM   #8036
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

The internet is full of trolls Dr

At 100xbb buyin 10k is fine for 2/5 to play semi pro with a day job
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:20 AM   #8037
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by 11t View Post
At 100xbb buyin 10k is fine for 2/5 to play semi pro with a day job
The guy said he didn't have a day job though.

In that case, I think the absolute minimum you should have is 10k plus 6 months' living expenses, with the understanding that if your roll ever drops below that you move down to 1/2 immediately. And don't stop looking for a job.
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:53 AM   #8038
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
Thanks for responding Richard but your reply is about as useful as a chocolate tea-pot and riddled with the same cliched, bog-standard answers given to novices just starting out. With all due respect, it comes across as bordering on the patronising.
Patronizing? Perhaps it's because you think you are special and deserves a personalized answer.

Your question has been asked hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
I am a veteran player who's been playing 1/2 for many years but who's recently had enough time on his hands to study the game more intensely and to take the game serious enough to consider moving up to 2/5.
That's what 99% of players think of themselves in LLSNL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Futtock View Post
Additionally, I'm baffled as to why full-time players wouldn't respond as I'm under the impression that 2+2 is a forum where such players contribute and that this thread is precisely here for the purpose of fellow players helping each other out.
Actually, this forum exists so people can help themselves, not necessarily to help each other.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:04 PM   #8039
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

<3 RP spreading truths in the thread

Doc: Your background is way to vague

what is your w/r @1/2 and over what sample size?
what is your tolerance to risk? Are you young and still looking for work with only obligations to yourself or are you 30+ with kids and a mortgage?
are you planning on doing poker as sole source of income?
how big is yer current roll?
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:03 PM   #8040
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Cheers, 10k plus living expenses equates to about 20k but please remember I am talking about the UK so it's £s and not $s. Also, the max buy-in for £2/£5 here is £2.5k or no-max depending on the venue.

1. My current winrate @1/2 is £8k over 6 months. I'm not sure of the hours played because I was still working for three of those months but I'm probably averaging about 80 hours per month. I've picked it up since August/September cos that's when I jacked in my job. (September = 133 hours, October, so far, = 73 hours.) I plan to put in a solid 140 hours per month from now on and feel I'm destined to generate more of an income per month - but then again, I suppose we all feel that :-)

2. When it comes to risk tolerance I stick to no-limit hold'em and never play other games. I nearly always buy-in for the maximum at 1/2 (£400 or sometimes around ~£350) and I tend to buy in for around £800-£1k when sitting down to £2/£5. I generally play a tight-aggressive / low variance type of game but like to think I can adapt differently if the dynamic calls for it.

3. I am in my 40s and gave up my job which paid around £35k a year. I have a missus and two daughters staying at home who are both fresh out of uni. They both have first class degrees from Bristol and Leeds (brag). They all support what I am doing. I rent a property in a nice part of London but it is reasonably cheap compared to London prices. We live a humble lifestyle without really splashing out.

4. I do plan on playing as my sole source of income but have told myself that I'll probably have to work part-time if my bankroll falls to £5-£10k.

5. I don't wish to reveal my current roll as it's not relevant and as some players know me and my username that's information I don't particularly wish to give away for free.
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Old 10-15-2014, 02:18 PM   #8041
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

20k bankroll plus 6 months living expenses as an absolute minimum. If max buyin was only 100bbs then I would say 10k bankroll.
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Old 10-15-2014, 10:25 PM   #8042
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

play whatever you want. Or whatever game looks best. Or wherever you're comfortable.

Ppl think too hard about this stuff imo

But saying you have years of experience, then stating your w/r is 8k over 6 months (you obv don't track stats/hours so your fig likely isn't even accurate) is sketchy

Take the game even more serious, track every minute you play and dollar you make. Bang out 1000 hours at 1/2 and try to beat it for atleast 7-8bb hour then move up. The game will move you up. You will know when it's time
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Old 10-19-2014, 01:05 AM   #8043
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Currently on a 3 session $300 1/2 full buyin loss which has killed my $1500 bankroll I built up. Strongly considering taking a break from live and investing my roll online to grind it up. It is frustrating when the live games are softer than the 5NL games online, but I don't know that my $600 roll is adequate for live. I want to stay disciplined and not put in any outside money, I want to use poker money for poker.

What do you guys think? I could go back to shortstacking but I don't really want to do that. So much missed $, although I did have some very good success doing it. 10BB/hr over about 100 hr sample. It is pretty boring too, especially when you fold that pocket pair because you don't have the set mining odds and you flop quads. Not to mention it is high variance although not too bad.

I've actually had some good success online on both WPN and Bovada. Might just take my roll there and try and grind it back up over the next few months. Mostly playing PLO online. I definitely think my PLO game is better than my HE game.

I'll miss the ambiance of live but I really don't want to go busto, and just a few more losing sessions and I'll be there.
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Old 10-19-2014, 01:08 AM   #8044
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

^ I would not continue playing 1/2 with a $600 roll. If you really wanna be disciplined, save up $4000 before playing again (that's what I'm doing after a big downswing).
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:05 PM   #8045
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If losing 300 makes you want to take a break from poker for a while you're in for a rude awakening. You probably shouldn't be playing if this will bother you. Expect 2K downswings

Set aside a 2k roll when you want to start again. This should be sufficient baring some really bad variance out the gate. Play solid tag, get a little cushion, then you can really start opening up your game and playing all different styles when your roll is 5k+. Less than a 2k roll and you will probably be playing scared money
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:10 PM   #8046
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Bm303, just get a temporary job, maybe some kind of a job that allows you to work for tips.

With a $600 roll, you might be rolled for 25nl. Say you can put in 50k hands per month and you can win 5bb/100 (both stats are optimistic and hard to achieve), your monthly expectation would be $625 per month. However this requires you to bust your ass off to be good and put in volume.

Working a 40hour job as a waiter or bartender and keeping yourself in the live game seems better.
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:39 PM   #8047
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'd take another shot at $1/2 with the remaining $600. Play three $200 buy ins, and assume that there's a good chance you'll need to supplement with a part time job, or just "life roll" money.
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:48 PM   #8048
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
What's the cash out rule? Roll at $8500. $1200 on table covered in several spots. Book it?
What rule?

You have to make your own judgment based on how good the game is, how well you're playing, how well you feel, how important the $8500 roll is to you, how important the $1200 on the table is to you, how important your profit tonight is for you
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:49 PM   #8049
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

not sure if i missed it bm3 but we need more info on your life situation

is the $600 you have in your poker roll very important to you?
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Old 10-19-2014, 07:12 PM   #8050
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I am an aspiring 1/2 live player looking for all the evidence I can get before I start putting in real volume @ live tables. (I have the bankroll and the time if I do attempt to take this seriously.) Is the following graph worth a shred of confidence considering the large discrepancy in volume/skill available on live tables?




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