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Old 09-15-2014, 11:48 AM   #7926
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Lending Club is a good option for low-risk yield imo

Bond funds are good too but will be subject to rise in interest rates
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:32 PM   #7927
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Lending Club is a good option for low-risk yield imo

Bond funds are good too but will be subject to rise in interest rates
Lending Club isn't low risk. It's the equivalent of buying a fund of junk bonds and gets extremely complicated for tax filing. I did it once and earned 12% over two years, but won't be doing it again.
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:44 PM   #7928
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Lending Club isn't low risk. It's the equivalent of buying a fund of junk bonds and gets extremely complicated for tax filing. I did it once and earned 12% over two years, but won't be doing it again.
12% annualized, or 12% gross? Assume the latter but just checking.

Why won't you do it again?

I just got into it and I like that it is decoupled from market volatility and offers the chance to allocate widely among a mix of risk profiles (the "A" through "E" credit ratings). I don't think it's fair to say that the "A" or "B" rated borrowers are equal to junk bonds at all.

I have heard that it is a pain for taxes... haven't quite got there yet.
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:51 PM   #7929
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If your winrate is really good take like $5-10/hr of your winnings and use it to invest
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:58 PM   #7930
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12% annualized, or 12% gross? Assume the latter but just checking.

Why won't you do it again?

I just got into it and I like that it is decoupled from market volatility and offers the chance to allocate widely among a mix of risk profiles (the "A" through "E" credit ratings). I don't think it's fair to say that the "A" or "B" rated borrowers are equal to junk bonds at all.

I have heard that it is a pain for taxes... haven't quite got there yet.
I made about 12% annualized, wouldn't bother for 5-6% a year. The interest rates paid to investors have also come down a lot compared to when I started. It's just too much if a pain in the ass to deal with for taxes. Every transaction has to be tracked, and you have to report gains on any single loan for which interest was paid no matter how small the profit was. A decent LC portfolio could have hundreds of loans. Mine had about 40 loans. I would rather just buy a bond fund which returns similar interest rates and doesn't have the same tax filing problems.
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:39 PM   #7931
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FWIW, 12% annualized is an incredible result... Average long-term return for equities is ~7% which are inherently much riskier than bonds. Even junk bonds price at ~9-10% in this market.

If 12% annualized is what you are targeting through Lending Club, then the comparison to junk bonds is accurate on a risk-adjusted basis.

Can't speak to the tax filing issue yet, although I recall something about how Lending Club has implemented some reporting system that makes it easy to track the individual loans.

I am very new to LC, so still figuring it out myself.
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:53 PM   #7932
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FWIW, 12% annualized is an incredible result... Average long-term return for equities is ~7% which are inherently much riskier than bonds. Even junk bonds price at ~9-10% in this market.

If 12% annualized is what you are targeting through Lending Club, then the comparison to junk bonds is accurate on a risk-adjusted basis.

Can't speak to the tax filing issue yet, although I recall something about how Lending Club has implemented some reporting system that makes it easy to track the individual loans.

I am very new to LC, so still figuring it out myself.
I know 12% is on the high end and probably not sustainable with a large portfolio. My default rate was lower than average because I picked every loan myself and at the time their rating system was different so the interest rates paid to investors was higher than they are now. Choosing every loan on a highly diversified $10k+ portfolio would be too time consuming. LC now gives you a tax form but you still have to report them all when filing. Unless you have an IRA set up with them you're also paying those taxes every year instead of only when you sell off like you would with stocks or mutual funds. Not very tax efficient. Google lending club bogleheads and read some of their message board threads about it.

The whole thing seems great at first but the more you get into the details the less appealing it turns out to be.
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:56 PM   #7933
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I made about 12% annualized, wouldn't bother for 5-6% a year. The interest rates paid to investors have also come down a lot compared to when I started. It's just too much if a pain in the ass to deal with for taxes. Every transaction has to be tracked, and you have to report gains on any single loan for which interest was paid no matter how small the profit was. A decent LC portfolio could have hundreds of loans. Mine had about 40 loans. I would rather just buy a bond fund which returns similar interest rates and doesn't have the same tax filing problems.
So they treat every loan you have a piece of as a separate transaction? Hmmm that could def get unwieldy. Seems like an interesting concept. I suspect they are doing it the way they do for legal reasons having to do with status as a fund or not.

There are no funds paying 12% yield. You may be able to squeeze that type of total return out of a bond fund over a particular year (particularly during a falling interest rate environment) but it is not coming through yields (more or less interest rates).
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Old 09-15-2014, 01:59 PM   #7934
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Choosing every loan on a highly diversified $10k+ portfolio would be too time consuming.
They have this "Automated Investing" system now which is really sweet, although takes a while to get fully invested.

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Unless you have an IRA set up with them you're also paying those taxes every year instead of only when you sell off like you would with stocks or mutual funds. Not very tax efficient.
Agree, the individual account does suck for taxes. IRA is the way to go.

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Google lending club bogleheads and read some of their message board threads about it.
Will do. I have definitely heard some criticisms and need to get smarter on it.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:01 PM   #7935
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So they treat every loan you have a piece of as a separate transaction? Hmmm that could def get unwieldy. Seems like an interesting concept. I suspect they are doing it the way they do for legal reasons having to do with status as a fund or not.

There are no funds paying 12% yield. You may be able to squeeze that type of total return out of a bond fund over a particular year (particularly during a falling interest rate environment) but it is not coming through yields (more or less interest rates).
Yes every loan is treated as a separate purchase and therefore a separate gain. Originally they left it up to investors to self report on taxes until they were given the smack down by the SEC. 12% long term in a large LC portfolio is not realistic at this time and probably never will be. I was lucky to invest a small amount before a thier reporting system and interest rates changed. Still it was a few buy ins worth and nothing life changing. Like I said, not worth the hassle and I'll just stick to buying funds instead.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:05 PM   #7936
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They have this "Automated Investing" system now which is really sweet, although takes a while to get fully invested.



Agree, the individual account does suck for taxes. IRA is the way to go.



Will do. I have definitely heard some criticisms and need to get smarter on it.
Problem with the automated investing tool is that you aren't evaluating every loan purchase yourself. When I invested I made sure to weigh the return vs the credit rating, default history, outstanding loan balances, and general story of why each person needed the money. Can't do that with an automated system and therefore being "lazy" about it will directly result in a lower overall return and higher default rate.
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:40 PM   #7937
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

What about an investment vehicle like silver or gold? I think they are pretty low risk and super liquid. Suppose something like 5-10% of your roll?

I think if you are fully rolled for the game you may never miss it.

Just feels like a shame having all this cash doing nothing.

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Old 09-15-2014, 09:57 PM   #7938
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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What about an investment vehicle like silver or gold? I think they are pretty low risk and super liquid. Suppose something like 5-10% of your roll?

I think if you are fully rolled for the game you may never miss it.

Just feels like a shame having all this cash doing nothing.

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Precious metals are not really an investment. They are a storage of wealth with a hedge against inflation. Keeping about 10% of your total investing money in PMs isn't a bad hedge, but there's little money to be made.
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:45 PM   #7939
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Good loss rate for 1/1

I have been playing 1/1 with a $5 max + $2 jackpot ($7) rake (at $45 pot).

As I understand it, a rake that high makes the game unbeatable. What would a decent loss rate be then?

Right now I'm down $446 in 70 hours. So, ~6.4 bb loss per hour. Trying to figure out just how bad I suck. Thanks.
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:55 PM   #7940
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Re: Good loss rate for 1/1

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I have been playing 1/1 with a $5 max + $2 jackpot ($7) rake (at $45 pot).

As I understand it, a rake that high makes the game unbeatable. What would a decent loss rate be then?

Right now I'm down $446 in 70 hours. So, ~6.4 bb loss per hour. Trying to figure out just how bad I suck. Thanks.
Don't play a game that can't be beat
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:43 AM   #7941
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Re: Good loss rate for 1/1

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Originally Posted by parachute91 View Post
I have been playing 1/1 with a $5 max + $2 jackpot ($7) rake (at $45 pot).

As I understand it, a rake that high makes the game unbeatable. What would a decent loss rate be then?

Right now I'm down $446 in 70 hours. So, ~6.4 bb loss per hour. Trying to figure out just how bad I suck. Thanks.
Bigger factor is how deep the game plays. If its 150+ buy ins with $8 preflop raises getting some calls then its fine. If its a bunch of tight players with $20 to $40 buyins then its not worth it.
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:07 AM   #7942
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Re: Good loss rate for 1/1

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Bigger factor is how deep the game plays. If its 150+ buy ins with $8 preflop raises getting some calls then its fine. If its a bunch of tight players with $20 to $40 buyins then its not worth it.
It's $80 max.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:01 AM   #7943
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Re: Good loss rate for 1/1

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It's $80 max.
Play a 7/4 nut camper strategy until you're at least 200bb deep with someone. Then revert to standard longball and treat the game like a 1/2.

Also move up stakes asap.
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Old 09-25-2014, 01:49 AM   #7944
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Nothing like a 16 buyin downswing @ 2/5 to make you rethink your ENTIRE approach to the game.....

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Old 09-25-2014, 02:09 AM   #7945
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Nothing like a 16 buyin downswing @ 2/5 to make you rethink your ENTIRE approach to the game.....

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May not be a bad thing!
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Old 09-25-2014, 02:22 AM   #7946
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Well....still have a winrate of 3.5 bb per hour over 1200 hours so....

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Old 09-25-2014, 08:17 AM   #7947
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1/2nl rake 5% cap 10 is beateable?

hello guys.is a 200nl game as i said in the title beateable?
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Old 09-25-2014, 08:24 AM   #7948
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yes.
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Old 09-25-2014, 08:36 AM   #7949
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

ty iraisetoomuch..how much u think should be my winnings if I play 8 hours a day everyday to consider myself I beat this game.I pay like 120 for rent a week plus 20 transportation plus 60 food..so i have 200 a week expense.ty very much
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:49 AM   #7950
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If you make 8bb/hour that's $16/hour. At 40 hours a week, that's $640 a week. Which means you are netting $440 a week. That's ~$1700 a month.

So, that should give you an idea.

But without posting a tl;dr answer, if you are asking this question, you likely shouldn't be trying to play for your only means of income. If you haven't taked the time to read through most of this thread (which would have answered most of your questions) then there is a strong chance that yo haven't done enough research and studying in other areas and that you should not be playing for a living.

I'd stick with a different job for a while.
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