Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-14-2014, 03:57 PM   #7601
de4df1sh
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
de4df1sh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: mobtown
Posts: 6,893
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In the states where I am a 5$+1 rake capped at 10% is fairly standard and definitely beatable at 1/2. I don't have any experience in 1/1 but assuming the BI isn't restricted below 100bbs it will probably be fine.

for what winrate im unsure, too many variable and unfamiliarity for me to assume, I would say DUKE is probably accurate in his assessment.
de4df1sh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 12:36 AM   #7602
dunderstron!
adept
 
dunderstron!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 842
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Who cares if some people on this site have higher win rates?

You are doing really well.
Congratulations.

The vast majority of players can't even beat the rake.

Beyond that, to be honest any system that you use will have potential down falls.

What are you taking the money out for?
What are you keeping a poker roll for?
Once you know these things, it should be easier to determine what your best strategy is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IbelieveinChipKelly View Post
A) Congrats on making the $5K. Doesn't matter if it took you 290 hours or 2900 hours. You are showing a profit and that is something to be proud of. That's $17 per hour, which isn't great ($30/hr is; $20+ hr. is probably what you should be striving for, but you have to play the style that is most comfortable for you right now; that might mean $17/hr is the max you can attain).
These responses are really nice. Thank you for your encouragements.

Right now my plan is to take out money, put it into my life roll, and use it to pay off college loans. If If I make a minimum payment, I'll consider that a victory. I'd like to make more than minimum payments every month when I can though and pay these things off as fast as possible.

I'm also planning on taking some money out of my poker roll to buy poker books and perhaps get an account on a training website.

$20/hr is definitely attainable if I keep playing the same way and remove all of my calling mistakes.

The last few sessions, because I hit 6k, I've been experimenting with LAG play from the BU and CO. I used to have this image where every time I bet, I had the goods, and people hated calling my bets. These last few sessions my image has been totally FOS, but I've still barreled people off better hands and gotten stacks every time I've flopped a good hand. I also triple barreled a calling station with an OESD when he had TP7K. Whoops. So far the LAG experiment is working but I think I've been running well, too.

I actually think the next session I should go back to playing TAG (unless the table is super weak/tight) and focus on not making mistakes. Probably better to trim the fat off before I open up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECGrinder View Post
What you're talking about is separation of cash into bins; which is imaginary. So it dosen't matter what you do. Unless you have CC debt or something with high interest, in which case figure out if your ev from playing higher stakes with a larger roll <>= the EV of paying of your debt.
This is a really interesting comment. I 100% agree; it's totally imaginary. But then again, so are most things human beings put value in, and I think the imaginary separation has some importance.

I guess I just like the idea of having a poker "roll" separate from the rest of my real life stuff, because then I can have a "guarantee" of being able to play poker, and I'll also not somehow go broke if I start playing bad. Not separating these rolls frightens me a little. I probably should look into paying loans though. If paying them off with my poker roll would save me a ton of money, it might be worth just assigning myself a poker budget per month...then again, I might play less seriously if I don't have roll-building goals in mind.

I'm not sure yet, but I'll keep what you say here in mind though and do some research because it's definitely important. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek12 View Post
Actually I think maybe the best strategy is just take it month by month. The little benchmark strategy I proposed could cause you to play suboptimally when you get close to the benchmark for cashing out or also if you start drifting away.
I love this idea, and this is what I'll go with. So I haven't payed myself yet, but I will if I make it to the end of the month. I'm $430 over $6,000 so far...*crosses fingers*
dunderstron! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 01:00 AM   #7603
dunderstron!
adept
 
dunderstron!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 842
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
But one of the things that I do as a serious rec player is cash out small bills.

When I first started playing I'd stick around paying blinds or playing bull**** hands and leave when I had a stack evenly divisible by either $50 or $100. Bad idea. Now I just cash out whenever it's time to leave. I take the small bills ($20's and below) and stick them in my other pocket for my life roll. Win or lose, a couple of bucks are getting transferred out. Keeps me from going to the ATM for lunch money. It's worked pretty well for 3-4 years now.
I've never had a problem with this. I just have the occasional session (1 out of 4) where I bring all the 5's, 10's, and 20's that have accumulated. I like to give any amount between $1-4 to the dealers and floor when I leave after a winning session. I think tipping the floor is very +EV, and if I have a bigger winning session I tip more for sure. Since I've done that, the floor people who know I'm a "serious" player tell me when there's a really action-spewy and/or drunk player in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Hi all, very serious question here:

Should I quit $2/5?

I've lost about 3500 over about 50 hours, including losing the last 4 sessions in a row.

I know I've been running bad, but I also know I made some mistakes. The value of my mistakes in some spots was just slightly -EV, but the result every time was the full loss. EX: I play a $1000 pot where the EV of my shove (with the losing hand) turned out to be about -$160, but the result was I lost $500 on the hand.

I played 2 large pots where I had 70%+ equity and lost each. Had my hand held up, I'd be down about 2500 total.

I've flopped zero sets and must have seen at least 30 flops with pocket pairs.

Is a 3500 downswing too much to be attributed to variance? Should I move back down to $1/2? FWIW, I can beat $1/2 and my win rate at 1/2 recently has been higher than ever.

I'm still properly rolled for 2/5 and have a stable job.
Hmm...I have 0 experience here because I'm just starting, but if I were in your situation for the first time, I'd move down just to regain confidence and revisit fundamentals. What you're going through sounds pretty standard and no big deal, but moving down for a few sessions is also no big deal. If you want, just move down, win some, then move back up again. If that feels wrong in some way, then stay where you are and grind through it. You have options; just pick the one you want imo.
dunderstron! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 01:48 AM   #7604
NineNatural
journeyman
 
NineNatural's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 336
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Is a 3500 downswing too much to be attributed to variance?
No.

Other questions are harder to answer without more information.
NineNatural is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 03:26 AM   #7605
acescracked84
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Beautiful Southern California
Posts: 1,420
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yeah, $3500 is nothing. I've been on 5k downswings and it's no big deal. Currently on a $9k upswing. Just keep playing.
acescracked84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 03:15 PM   #7606
Triple7quinn
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Rivering Bottom Set
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderstron! View Post
I like to give any amount between $1-4 to the dealers and floor when I leave after a winning session. I think tipping the floor is very +EV, and if I have a bigger winning session I tip more for sure. Since I've done that, the floor people who know I'm a "serious" player tell me when there's a really action-spewy and/or drunk player in the game.
.
+1.
Triple7quinn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 03:56 PM   #7607
Angrist
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,883
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderstron! View Post
I've never had a problem with this. I just have the occasional session (1 out of 4) where I bring all the 5's, 10's, and 20's that have accumulated. I like to give any amount between $1-4 to the dealers and floor when I leave after a winning session. I think tipping the floor is very +EV, and if I have a bigger winning session I tip more for sure. Since I've done that, the floor people who know I'm a "serious" player tell me when there's a really action-spewy and/or drunk player in the game.
Heheh, I love the "drug dealer" buy-in

Gotta make sure you put a hundo on the outside of that roll for when you pull it out too

I tried a couple of other methods of dealing with cash outs too. Mingling all my money and using my session log to track BR, leaving non-hundred increments in chips when at my regular room, cashing out whenever but keeping the small bills with my poker BR large bills. They all have some pros and cons and won't work for everybody.

+1000 on tipping the dealers/floor the last few chips. I've gotten invites to home games and texts about whales/juicy games by being chummy with the floor people. I don't think it's ever factored into a ruling going in my favor, but it can't hurt.
Angrist is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2014, 12:06 AM   #7608
scourrge
centurion
 
scourrge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 175
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by acescracked84 View Post
Yeah, $3500 is nothing. I've been on 5k downswings and it's no big deal. Currently on a $9k upswing. Just keep playing.
Not needling/digging at you, but what does a "$9k upswing" even mean? Up 9k since your last breakeven stretch, or...? The way I think of it, only losing players have "upswings" (because losing players have a budget not a BR), and only winning players have "downswings." (And btw, I don't care if you're a winning or losing player - I'm probably damn close to breakeven in most non-fish fests anyway ) Though tbh personally I'm trying to throw the whole notion of swings out the window in my own mind. Obv it's not working so well =/

Also, I know I'm a few days late to the party, but with talk about BR separation: Whoever said that something being "imaginary" made it not real/relevant? I don't think Angelo's point on all that was that the imaginary walls aren't real, but rather that thinking about them in the first place is the important part.
scourrge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 02:15 AM   #7609
de4df1sh
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
de4df1sh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: mobtown
Posts: 6,893
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hey guys!

For awhile now i've been toying with the idea of taking shots at the $5 dollar blind level. poker is my main source of income so bankroll managment is of the upmost importance. If I go broke, im F'd which is why i've prolonged it.

Some things about me:

11k roll

aprox 20/hr winrate at 1/2 400 hr sample

low monthly nut

What im asking for:

Any references to good material regarding shots

tips/advice

anecdotal tales

Thanks!
de4df1sh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 02:39 AM   #7610
beta1607
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,587
If you have a separate life roll and living expenses saved up then I would take a 2-3 buy in shot. If you don't have the savings then I would wait and probably get a part time job to help you save money quicker

Sent from my SCH-I535 using 2+2 Forums
beta1607 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 02:48 AM   #7611
de4df1sh
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
de4df1sh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: mobtown
Posts: 6,893
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I do not have a seperate "life roll" per say. however my monthly nut is less then 400 dollars or so. so i have always just transferred some money into my working checking account monthly. My total networth is aprox 12k with some belongings i could sell if things ever get nasty.
de4df1sh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 03:44 AM   #7612
KatoKrazy
Pooh-Bah
 
KatoKrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,226
I would be waiting until upon have about 15-16k and then MAYBE take a 3-4 buyin shot. 400 hours still isn't a real big sample size, and your bankroll is literally your lifeline.
KatoKrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 04:04 AM   #7613
squid face
ChatThreadPrez
 
squid face's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: grabbin c-notes from the money tree
Posts: 10,254
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by de4df1sh View Post
Hey guys!

For awhile now i've been toying with the idea of taking shots at the $5 dollar blind level. poker is my main source of income so bankroll managment is of the upmost importance. If I go broke, im F'd which is why i've prolonged it.

Some things about me:

11k roll

aprox 20/hr winrate at 1/2 400 hr sample

low monthly nut

What im asking for:

Any references to good material regarding shots

tips/advice

anecdotal tales

Thanks!
poker is your main source of income - 400 hour sample - thinking about taking a shot at a bigger game for a while now.

These statements do not compute my man.
If you are in fact playing "full time" 400 hrs should be under 3 months of poker.

400 hours is not a very big sample as most will tell u

Advice:Start cranking out the hours and I mean cranking. With a nut as small as yours you should be able to build a roll in no time. Then shots can happen organically and be relatively stress free
squid face is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 04:24 AM   #7614
de4df1sh
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
de4df1sh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: mobtown
Posts: 6,893
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by squid face View Post
poker is your main source of income - 400 hour sample - thinking about taking a shot at a bigger game for a while now.

These statements do not compute my man.
If you are in fact playing "full time" 400 hrs should be under 3 months of poker.

400 hours is not a very big sample as most will tell u

Advice:Start cranking out the hours and I mean cranking. With a nut as small as yours you should be able to build a roll in no time. Then shots can happen organically and be relatively stress free
I agree 100% with regards on sample size. one of my biggest leaks is getting in hours at the table. FWIW i've only been "pro" the last 6 months due to necessity.
de4df1sh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 05:23 AM   #7615
squid face
ChatThreadPrez
 
squid face's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: grabbin c-notes from the money tree
Posts: 10,254
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by de4df1sh View Post
I agree 100% with regards on sample size. one of my biggest leaks is getting in hours at the table. FWIW i've only been "pro" the last 6 months due to necessity.
ok my friend you need to be honest with yourself here. You are NOT "pro". a "pro" does not log 400 hrs in 6 months. You are a "serious" rec player. 400 hours in 6 months is not even part time.

I am not trying to belittle you or anything like that. I am simply trying to help you get some perspective. Again before you take any shots you need to get your shyt together and actually treat this like a job if you consider yourself to be a pro. Why is that Squid?

Here is the deal. At some point you are going to have some major expense. Trust me. Your car will break down, you will get injured, your girl will get pregnant - LIFE HAPPENS

Meanwhile you have been dicking around logging under 20 hrs/wk and not building a roll. Suddenly your stress levels are a little higher, you are "running bad", BOOM BUSTO.

So what do I do?

Set some serious goals - act like a pro - crank out hours - do work away from the table - build a roll - then think about taking shots
squid face is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 10:33 AM   #7616
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

+1 to squid face's post.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2014, 10:49 AM   #7617
LOLshoveaments
journeyman
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 263
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Squid you're an inspiration! Can't wait to grind it out today wahoo!
LOLshoveaments is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 02:38 PM   #7618
day'n'night
old hand
 
day'n'night's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 1,517
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

what would be an achievable winrate at a 1/1 game with a 10% rake caped at 5bb (if beatable)? And at a 1/2 game with a 5% rake capped at 5bb? I have heard alot of different answers and was interested to hear what you guys thought about this.

ps: the level of play is obv pretty bad, and min buy in is 40bb and max is half of biggest stack at the table
day'n'night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2014, 02:57 PM   #7619
iraisetoomuch
banned
 
iraisetoomuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 34,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
what would be an achievable winrate at a 1/1 game with a 10% rake caped at 5bb (if beatable)? And at a 1/2 game with a 5% rake capped at 5bb? I have heard alot of different answers and was interested to hear what you guys thought about this.

ps: the level of play is obv pretty bad, and min buy in is 40bb and max is half of biggest stack at the table
Not sure about the 1/1 game, but the 1/2 game likely caps out around 15bb/hour.

That rake structure is pretty close to any other 1/2 game in the country and that's the effective limit.
Your game may differ based on how often people get deep and how often those deep stacked players are really bad.
iraisetoomuch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 05:18 AM   #7620
Cyal8rloser
banned
 
Cyal8rloser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: surrounded by subhuman filth
Posts: 539
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

April 360hrs +18.7k
May 220-240hrs +2k
June 200-220hrs -1k
July 120hrs +2.5k

May and June are close estimates as I purged my stats and started fresh on Jun 27 out of frustration. Aside from being incredibly burnt out from putting in so many hours in April, I am also burnt from the incredibly long downswing/breakeven stretch. I was surprised to see just how low my volume is this month and it needs to change.

I'm going for 400 hours in August, and seeing as there are 31 days that month it should be doable. One of the main things that has killed my volume is the fact that I'm putting in a lot of 3-4hr sessions, compared to the standard benders in the past. Even if I continue to run very bad and squeeze out $20/hr, that would still be 8 grand, so that is my motivation. I want to have a 10k+ month again, and I want it bad...
Cyal8rloser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 09:01 AM   #7621
BenT07891
old hand
 
BenT07891's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Chicago Suburbs, IL
Posts: 1,641
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hey all, I finally WON at $2/5. It was a small win though, only 100, but it broke my losing streak.

My conclusion is 2/5 is quite a bit tougher than 1/2. Players are equally tight posflop or tighter than in 1/2, meaning if I flop a set in a multiway pot, I'm not more likely to get paid of at 2/5.

But the players at 2/5 bluff more, especially raising flop turn or river as a bluff, or betting large on the river as a bluff. I say this not because I've seen a lot of bluffs, but just based on frequency.
BenT07891 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 10:47 AM   #7622
GrindPokerAllDay
banned
 
GrindPokerAllDay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: In a poker room near you.
Posts: 2,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
But the players at 2/5 bluff more, especially raising flop turn or river as a bluff, or betting large on the river as a bluff. I say this not because I've seen a lot of bluffs, but just based on frequency.
There are several different player types, but in general 2/5 players will play their made hands more aggressively and potentially their semi-bluffs more aggressively as well. I wouldn't just assume players are bluffing though....unless they are Asian.
GrindPokerAllDay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 11:02 AM   #7623
JPeezy55
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 439
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Hey all, I finally WON at $2/5. It was a small win though, only 100, but it broke my losing streak.

My conclusion is 2/5 is quite a bit tougher than 1/2. Players are equally tight posflop or tighter than in 1/2, meaning if I flop a set in a multiway pot, I'm not more likely to get paid of at 2/5.

But the players at 2/5 bluff more, especially raising flop turn or river as a bluff, or betting large on the river as a bluff. I say this not because I've seen a lot of bluffs, but just based on frequency.
I think this is on the money. I think there are a lot of very straightforward at 1/2 (game-dependent obviously). Although the 2/5 players are way more competent, my experience is that they make more expensive mistakes.

At 2/5, villains might put in a huge raise with air if they sense weakness. I see that far less frequently at 1/2. So it's very profitable if you can figure it out but harder to do.
JPeezy55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:39 PM   #7624
n0npareil
centurion
 
n0npareil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rain City
Posts: 127
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can give me advice on paying off my credit card debt.

I currently work part-time and play 1/2 3-5 days a week. My bankroll currently at 3000. I usually buy-in for 300 but recently I've been buying in for 200 and top up to 300 when I feel comfortable enough with the table dynamics.

I make about 900 from my part-time job every month (if i dont miss work). My personal expenses are about 500. I have a debt of 4000. I also give some of my profit to my wife to help with expenses.

So my goals are to build my bankroll and to start paying off my debt. Is it possible to do both at the same time? Should I put use a % of my profit to start paying it off? If so, how much? Thanks in advance.
n0npareil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2014, 02:48 PM   #7625
iraisetoomuch
banned
 
iraisetoomuch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 34,453
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Um,

To be honest, you shouldn't be playing poker at all if you are in debt if you don't have a proven record (500+ hours) of beating the game for a reasonable sample size. You should really look to get your self a second part time job or a full time job instead of both of those.


Poker is fun, and sometimes it's easy. But it's very easy to lose a lot of money playing poker if you don't know what you are doing. It's easy to lose a lot of money if you do know what you are doing. It's call variance.

Also, how much do you have to give to your wife each month? It that part of your $500 a month in expenses?

To be honest, what you should do it to take your entire bankroll, every penny and pay off as much of the debt that you can. Then keep paying it off until you are out of debt. Which should only be 1 -2 months from now.

Then you can take the money on a month by month basis and put it back into your poker roll if you want. The same $3,000 and then play however you want from there. You will spend less on the interest on the debt, your credit will look better and it will give you some time to read and study up on cards. We all need more time to study up. Even the pros.

Good luck.
iraisetoomuch is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive