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Old 06-13-2014, 05:45 AM   #7401
charlie310
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
^ Ok. I thought you meant they weren't soft because of the player pool. You mean they're not soft because the no matter how bad the player pool is, the structure makes it's impossible for it to be soft, the structure is taking the skill out of the game. Makes sense now. It's LA though? There isn't a 100BB game nearby?
It's actually the 3:

1. Rake is too damn high
2. Low buyin stucture
3. Too many bad players (I guess 2 & 3 are inter-related)
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:49 AM   #7402
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Originally Posted by charlie310 View Post
Now we're going way off topic. I posted that my WR is higher in a 100BB game vs a 33BB game, which should be no surprise.

2nd, set-mining in a 33BB game is obviously -EV like 99% of the time.

3rd, don't be so certain until you've played at least 500 hrs. Trust me, a table of 8 fishing donkeys is most likely not going to be the best table unless you're running like god.
100bb deep, a table of 8 donkeys who never fold is going to be the best game

You will make more money when you make hands than you'll lose when you don't make hands... By a lot

Just don't bluff and c/f every time you miss the flop... And get max value when you do hit it. Its so easy
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:53 AM   #7403
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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
100bb deep, a table of 8 donkeys who never fold is going to be the best game

You will make more money when you make hands than you'll lose when you don't make hands... By a lot

Just don't bluff and c/f every time you miss the flop... And get max value when you do hit it. Its so easy
Facepalm. We were talking about a 33BB game. We've been talking about a 33BB game the whole time. I even said, don't be so certain until you've played like 500 hours at a 33BB game. Anyone who was reading our posts would know that we were talking about a 33BB game.

Anyways, if you won't take my word for it, try it yourself or ask reputable winning LA grinders. Actually, I take that back because most of them won't know cuz they don't ever play those games. LOL.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:57 AM   #7404
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Originally Posted by charlie310 View Post
Facepalm. We were talking about a 33BB game. We've been talking about a 33BB game the whole time. I even said, don't be so certain until you've played like 500 hours at a 33BB game. Anyone who was reading our posts would know that we were talking about a 33BB game.

Anyways, if you won't take my word for it, try it yourself or ask reputable winning LA grinders. Actually, I take that back because most of them won't know cuz they don't ever play those games. LOL.
I know what you're talking about, I was just stating I wish I played in games where I was called in 5 spots every time and no one ever folded

Yea 33bb deep is not beatable. I thought that was a given.
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Old 06-13-2014, 06:08 AM   #7405
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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
I know what you're talking about, I was just stating I wish I played in games where I was called in 5 spots every time and no one ever folded

Yea 33bb deep is not beatable. I thought that was a given.
I thought that was a given, too, but people are arguing against me. This is evident when I say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie310 View Post
Cliche. Obviously, you want to be deep in these games, not 33BBs. Also, I think optimal is 1 to 3 callers PF, not 6. LOL. You do realize even with AA, you're going to lose the hand like 4 out of 5 times against that many players. I don't think anyone who knows stats likes having 1/3 of your stack in PF with any hand against that many people.
and people are still arguing with me telling me it's profitable to set-mine in these games. LOL.

No offense, and I get it. These 33BB games don't really exist outside LA so it's not common knowledge how these games are.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:09 AM   #7406
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If the play is really bad and you play super tight then it's probably beatable but likely not worth your time
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:20 AM   #7407
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hi all, I'm starting $2/5 and am currently at a $1.2k downswing. I'm very certain that I'm running below EV. I lost a two pots totaling $1.3k in which, for each, I had about 80% equity.

At what point in a downswing should I quite, move down a level, and focus on working on my game?
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:30 AM   #7408
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Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Hi all, I'm starting $2/5 and am currently at a $1.2k downswing. I'm very certain that I'm running below EV. I lost a two pots totaling $1.3k in which, for each, I had about 80% equity.

At what point in a downswing should I quite, move down a level, and focus on working on my game?
I think it should be based on your br not how big your downswing is
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:39 AM   #7409
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Hi all, I'm starting $2/5 and am currently at a $1.2k downswing. I'm very certain that I'm running below EV. I lost a two pots totaling $1.3k in which, for each, I had about 80% equity.

At what point in a downswing should I quite, move down a level, and focus on working on my game?
Downswings happen, and 1,2 K at 2/5 is pretty much nothing- it happens all the time, even to very skilled winning players.

That being said i find it very helpful taking a step back every time you are facing a swing that make you doubt your game. Taking a step back can be to post some more hands to discuss in the forum, take a break from poker for some days or several weeks and more. You have to figure out your own path, what works for me doesent necesserly work for you.

The important thing is that you are being honest against yourself about what caused the downswing. Did you get your money in good? Did you played too many hands that put you into hard marginal decisions? Did you start to spew after loosing couple of buyins? Did you gamble with draws more than you normally do?

Those are the kind of questions i ask myself when i face a downswing that make me think twice about my game.For me personally it works to take some days off poker if i get a really bad run and people are drawing out on me time after time and the beats just keep coming. I am having a break now because i feel tilted after my last session. We had this huge whale in the game, managing to loose almost 15 buyins through the night, spewing in ways that is extremely rare to see. But i somehow managed to loose 5 buyins to this guy, because he was running like lightning against me, hitting his miracle cards time and time again. I then do other things i like to do, such as listening to music, working out and spend time with family/friends. Then when i feel that the bad negative feelings about poker is gone from my body, i then come back to play again- with a fresh mind and recharged batteries.
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:00 AM   #7410
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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
100bb deep, a table of 8 donkeys who never fold is going to be the best game

You will make more money when you make hands than you'll lose when you don't make hands... By a lot

Just don't bluff and c/f every time you miss the flop... And get max value when you do hit it. Its so easy
I don't know if I agree that a game full of fish that can't fold is necessarily the best game. If we lose our ability to bluff, we lose some of our edge. Essentially, we have to make a hand or we are toast. We are now no better than the marginally profitable regs that play their hands face up. Personally, Id rather play against a table of experienced bad players that know how to hand read and are capable of folding because they know what we are repping.
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:21 AM   #7411
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I don't know if I agree that a game full of fish that can't fold is necessarily the best game. If we lose our ability to bluff, we lose some of our edge. Essentially, we have to make a hand or we are toast. We are now no better than the marginally profitable regs that play their hands face up. Personally, Id rather play against a table of experienced bad players that know how to hand read and are capable of folding because they know what we are repping.
But we are much better than marginally profitable regs in these games because we get thinner value, play more profitably preflop, and don't pay off with bad relative value hands

"We have to make hands or we are toast" is faulty logic because over the course of a lifetime session, we will make the same number hands as everyone else and make more money on those than the fish and bad regs. Who cares if we go a few sessions without making any hands? We'll lose or break even but when we do make hands, we'll get it all back and a lot more
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Old 06-13-2014, 09:21 AM   #7412
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by charlie310 View Post
Facepalm. We were talking about a 33BB game. We've been talking about a 33BB game the whole time. I even said, don't be so certain until you've played like 500 hours at a 33BB game. Anyone who was reading our posts would know that we were talking about a 33BB game.
Spoiler alert: When the fishes triple up after the inveitable 3 way all in, and you triple up or chip up, you're now 100bb deep!

mindexplode.gif
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Old 06-13-2014, 11:29 AM   #7413
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Hi all, I'm starting $2/5 and am currently at a $1.2k downswing. I'm very certain that I'm running below EV. I lost a two pots totaling $1.3k in which, for each, I had about 80% equity.

At what point in a downswing should I quite, move down a level, and focus on working on my game?
240bbs is not a downswing, especially if during that period you got huge money in good twice as a big favourite (where losing can really set you back for the short term).

If you are not having fun, not confident in your decision making, close to breaking your poker bankroll, etc. then by all means move down. Otherwise, based on the information you posted alone, you can probably just stay the course.

Ggoodluck!G
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Old 06-13-2014, 12:07 PM   #7414
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenT07891 View Post
Hi all, I'm starting $2/5 and am currently at a $1.2k downswing. I'm very certain that I'm running below EV. I lost a two pots totaling $1.3k in which, for each, I had about 80% equity.

At what point in a downswing should I quite, move down a level, and focus on working on my game?
Yea, as GG stated, that's not really a downswing. You could lose that much in 3 hands.

Anyways, you should move down whenever the losses start to 'get to you.' This doesn't mean you have to move down and stay down.

Here's what I used to do:
Move down to the lower stake game, then stay at that level until I show a little profit (maybe even just like 80BB). For example, if I move down and lose 2 buy ins, I must stay at that level until I've shown a profit.

This is obviously a purely psychological tool. There's no real reason to stay down at $1/2 for that long. But I felt that it would give me a good mindset / momentum to move up again. Always move up when you're winning, never when you're losing.
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Old 06-13-2014, 02:51 PM   #7415
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by charlie310 View Post
It's actually the 3:

1. Rake is too damn high
2. Low buyin stucture
3. Too many bad players (I guess 2 & 3 are inter-related)
1 and 2 make sense.

I don't know what 3 means. You want to play Durrr HU, that's where you'll make your money?
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Old 06-13-2014, 03:36 PM   #7416
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1 and 2 make sense.

I don't know what 3 means. You want to play Durrr HU, that's where you'll make your money?
U seem to miss everything. Where did "playing Durr HU" come from. LOL! Thats so random and so extreme...

Why is a short buyin game not beneficial to a solid player? If u know the answer to that, then its obvious why u dont want to play with 8 donkeys with 33BBs.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:05 PM   #7417
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Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Spoiler alert: When the fishes triple up after the inveitable 3 way all in, and you triple up or chip up, you're now 100bb deep!

mindexplode.gif
Great idea! Instead of playing in a $500 100bb game where i have a great WR, i should play in a 33bb game in hopes of trippling up and in hopes of the fish trippling up so i can try and beat the rake of 120bb/hour! Mindexplode.gif

I almost forgot why i never post on 2p2: too many trolls...
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:10 PM   #7418
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Maybe LA really is unique, but FL used to have, iirc, a 2/5 $100 max buyin. Players would essentially shove blind/coin flip until they had enough to actually play.

I think the point irtm was making was, a 33bb game is going to be very home-gameish until players get a little deeper. As opposed to a given player buying in for 33bb and then leaving as soon as that's gone.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:08 AM   #7419
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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
But we are much better than marginally profitable regs in these games because we get thinner value, play more profitably preflop, and don't pay off with bad relative value hands

"We have to make hands or we are toast" is faulty logic because over the course of a lifetime session, we will make the same number hands as everyone else and make more money on those than the fish and bad regs. Who cares if we go a few sessions without making any hands? We'll lose or break even but when we do make hands, we'll get it all back and a lot more
However, if I'm playing against bad experienced players I can make less hands than everyone else and still make more money than them because I can pick spots and take lines that I know will make them fold. Also, the variance tends to be much lower.
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Old 06-14-2014, 01:54 PM   #7420
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You should be able to make money against any kind o bad player. The ones who shovel money into the pot are by far the most profitable. To say otherwise means you lack the mental makeup to adjust accordingly.
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Old 06-14-2014, 03:54 PM   #7421
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Obviously the edge is greater for good players when playing deep. However, there is still an edge even if playing 33BB because the players are horrible here in LA.

Charlie strikes me as the kind of player who would table change from an action table because people may be calling blind, calling raises with 72o, etc.. and he wants to play poker and not gamboool.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:54 PM   #7422
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a couple of these from sasswarmherzigenearlier:
Miami -18.5 [would pass now with Wright/Shields out]
Troy +24v
BYU -4
Memphis +3
Cal o54, also thinking Tenn +7 vvvvvvvvvvvn.Ainge injury is scaring me off there.
GT +3.5, [can you believe opened at 9-9.5?]
Ariz St o49 all for 1 unit.
ih
2-0, 2u ytd so far.


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Old 06-14-2014, 06:43 PM   #7423
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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You should be able to make money against any kind o bad player. The ones who shovel money into the pot are by far the most profitable. To say otherwise means you lack the mental makeup to adjust accordingly.
I'm not fully buying this. One thing is certain. The lower your edge over the entire field, the more beneficial it is for you to play villains that cant fold.
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:49 PM   #7424
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Why would you say that? Someone who has a huge edge over a station is going to profit the same way as someone with a small edge. They'll just so it more efficiently. Being "better" is kind of arbitrary. Being better in a certain game type is more accurate. A great player will have that edge vs. lots I player types.
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Old 06-14-2014, 07:35 PM   #7425
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I'm not fully buying this. One thing is certain. The lower your edge over the entire field, the more beneficial it is for you to play villains that cant fold.
I don't think you understand how edges work

Like is Phil Ivey going to make more against people who never fold like youll find in good 1/2 and 2/5 games or against inexperienced bad regs who do fold?

He's just going to make way too much money on his value hands, especially because he's probably good enough to vpip a ton of hands and make SOME moves for it to be more profitable form him to play against somewhat competent burlt weak players
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