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Old 03-21-2014, 06:55 PM   #6751
DjSkyy
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

playing as a pro is much more exciting if you're dangerously under rolled. the highs are higher, the lows are lower, and you will truly find out what you are made of. every day will be exciting!

Last edited by DjSkyy; 03-21-2014 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:04 PM   #6752
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playing as a pro is much more exciting if you're dangerously under rolled. the highs are higher and the lows are lower, and every day is exciting!
Lol truth in sarcasm
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:11 AM   #6753
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

When i say 50 buyins i mean assuming you have no other income
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:55 AM   #6754
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20 buy-ins is sufficient ($4k for 1/2) as long as you beat the game pretty well and have a separate "life roll" for bills and such.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:10 AM   #6755
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@HLB,

50 bi, are you considering your life roll including or separate from that figure?

As a " pro" I use the 30bi rule to move up, and 6 months of life expenses (something like 15k aside). I look to take shots when I would then have 25bi to the game above. So in my case, I play 2/5 currently on a 20k roll, once I get 25k, I can take shots at 5/10 and look to play it somewhat more exclusively once I hit 30bi and beyond

I play a medium - high variance style. Im looking to be aggressive with shot taking but don't have any problems moving down. In fact, there is a juicy 1/2 card game much closer to home that I occasionally still go to when I want to reduce expenses and relaxation time to time.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:08 AM   #6756
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

What part of Michigan are you from, Pay? I'm wondering if your juicy 1/2 game is one of my club games.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:21 AM   #6757
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What part of Michigan are you from, Pay? I'm wondering if your juicy 1/2 game is one of my club games.
Novi area, probably not the same place corlath
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:52 AM   #6758
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Ah, definitely not!
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Old 03-22-2014, 06:35 PM   #6759
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool View Post
@HLB,

50 bi, are you considering your life roll including or separate from that figure?

As a " pro" I use the 30bi rule to move up, and 6 months of life expenses (something like 15k aside). I look to take shots when I would then have 25bi to the game above. So in my case, I play 2/5 currently on a 20k roll, once I get 25k, I can take shots at 5/10 and look to play it somewhat more exclusively once I hit 30bi and beyond

I play a medium - high variance style. Im looking to be aggressive with shot taking but don't have any problems moving down. In fact, there is a juicy 1/2 card game much closer to home that I occasionally still go to when I want to reduce expenses and relaxation time to time.

Personally for me, i have money set aside where if some disaster occurred and my 50 buyins were wiped i would still be financially okay, at least for some while. So for me my personal roll is separated from my poker roll. But im still a bankroll nit, so i follow the 50buyin rule.

Im actually way overrolled for 2-5 (the current game i mostly play). Starting to make the transition to 5-T as im approaching 50 buyins for that level

30 buyins is doable too, but i just like the peace of mind knowing that im very well rolled for the game i play. Being financial responsible and mitigating risk is part of being a good player. So i've taken it to the extreme.

Thats not to say i dont occasionally take shots.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:25 PM   #6760
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Stupid question:

Getting $20K. Want to put aside the correct amount for expenses and poker roll (for $1/$3).

I was going to go with $11K for life; $9K for poker. That's an even 300 buyins or 3000 BBs. Now, ATSai says 2000BB ($6,000) would be adequate. I'm now thinking of going $6K because, hell, I'll still have the extra $3K set aside and can always reload if I start off with bad results.

Thoughts?

Last edited by ibelieveyouoweme$80k; 03-22-2014 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Changed $11 to $11K, cause, obviously, $11 isn't enough
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:31 AM   #6761
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by IbelieveinChipKelly View Post
I was going to go with $11K for life; $9K for poker. That's an even 300 buyins or 3000 BBs. Now, ATSai says 2000BB ($6,000) would be adequate. I'm now thinking of going $6K because, hell, I'll still have the extra $3K set aside and can always reload if I start off with bad results.

Thoughts?
you mean 30 buyins, right? 20 buyins (or 2000 bbs) is more adequate @ 1/3 if you are a consistent winner.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:46 AM   #6762
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Stupid question:

Getting $20K. Want to put aside the correct amount for expenses and poker roll (for $1/$3).

I was going to go with $11K for life; $9K for poker. That's an even 300 buyins or 3000 BBs. Now, ATSai says 2000BB ($6,000) would be adequate. I'm now thinking of going $6K because, hell, I'll still have the extra $3K set aside and can always reload if I start off with bad results.

Thoughts?
You could use the extra 3k as a 6bi shot at 2/5 if you are comfortable doing that. If you are a consistent winner at 1/3, 20bis should be fine for a roll if your shot taking fails.

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Old 03-23-2014, 09:38 AM   #6763
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by genghiskan View Post
you mean 30 buyins, right? 20 buyins (or 2000 bbs) is more adequate @ 1/3 if you are a consistent winner.

Yeah, damn typos. I hate making typos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainondeck View Post
You could use the extra 3k as a 6bi shot at 2/5 if you are comfortable doing that. If you are a consistent winner at 1/3, 20bis should be fine for a roll if your shot taking fails.

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Possibly. Want to get off to a good start when I do this, though, so might wait a month or so before taking that shot.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:50 AM   #6764
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

FWIW, you don't need as large of a bankroll when you have a high win-rate, and you definitely need a larger than normal bankroll when you have a relatively low win-rate.

Win-rate is really the most important determinant of how much bankroll that you really need. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to determine your true win-rate in live NLHE. Just use your best educated guess (without being biased).

Cliff Notes: If you are confident that you crush the games for a ridiculously high win-rate, you probably don't need as much of a bankroll as is normally recommended. If you are confident that you have a relatively low-winrate compared to others regs/pros, then you definitely need a larger than normal bankroll than is normally recommended.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:52 AM   #6765
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
FWIW, you don't need as large of a bankroll when you have a high win-rate, and you definitely need a larger than normal bankroll when you have a relatively low win-rate.

Win-rate is really the most important determinant of how much bankroll that you really need. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to determine your true win-rate in live NLHE.

Cliff Notes: If you are confident that you crush the games for a ridiculously high win-rate, you probably don't need as much of a bankroll as is normally recommended. If you are confident that you have a relatively low-winrate compared to others regs/pros, then you definitely need a larger than normal bankroll than is normally recommended.
OK, thanks. I will probably go with the higher number then. I'm more of a grinder, not a crusher.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:12 AM   #6766
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Just start running it up and save your money. then you can put $3k towards your bankroll and 3k towards your life roll. Easy game.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:58 AM   #6767
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm playing part time now, have a family and child....just started again last year.

Have a job and used to play 2/5 before I got married...never took stats but I was up modestly from what I remember.

My BR is at about $4k, I just started taking stats last year on my phone.

11.47 hourly rate for 1/2 over 340 hours sustainable? (15 months)

I'm just playing as a side thing, to make spending cash hopefully.
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:52 PM   #6768
captainondeck
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My BR is at about $4k, I just started taking stats last year on my phone.

11.47 hourly rate for 1/2 over 340 hours sustainable? (15 months)
Yup at 5.5bb/hr that is sustainable and also could probably be increased if some leaks could be plugged. Generally speaking 10bb/hr is the "crushing it" line. Although 340 hours is a pretty small sample size to determine wr to any degree of certainty.

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Old 03-23-2014, 07:31 PM   #6769
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by captainondeck View Post
Yup at 5.5bb/hr that is sustainable and also could probably be increased if some leaks could be plugged. Generally speaking 10bb/hr is the "crushing it" line. Although 340 hours is a pretty small sample size to determine wr to any degree of certainty.

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You need to specify what rake structure you are talking about?? I play mainly 2/4 game with 10% up to $12 with a $5 seating charge (paid on average every 5hrs).
I would not think 10bb/hr is sustainable in this game.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:12 PM   #6770
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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You need to specify what rake structure you are talking about?? I play mainly 2/4 game with 10% up to $12 with a $5 seating charge (paid on average every 5hrs).
I would not think 10bb/hr is sustainable in this game.
This a pretty massive rake.

Just saying.

The 2/5 games that I play in are 10% capped at $5..
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:15 PM   #6771
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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This a pretty massive rake.

Just saying.

The 2/5 games that I play in are 10% capped at $5..
He lives in Australia
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:30 PM   #6772
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

The game itself doesn't seem sustainable.

100bb at 2/4 is $400.

35 hands per hour at $8/hand = $280 an hour removed from the table.

$5 x 10 seats = $50, and divide that by 5 = $10/hr.

Combining both, we're talking about ~$300 removed from the table every hour.

So if everyone starts with 100bb, even without doing anything, almost one player drops out of the game automatically every hour.

Playing this game is not smart.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:50 PM   #6773
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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The game itself doesn't seem sustainable.

100bb at 2/4 is $400.

35 hands per hour at $8/hand = $280 an hour removed from the table.

$5 x 10 seats = $50, and divide that by 5 = $10/hr.

Combining both, we're talking about ~$300 removed from the table every hour.

So if everyone starts with 100bb, even without doing anything, almost one player drops out of the game automatically every hour.

Playing this game is not smart.
I'm not saying the game is super good, but I think your assumptions are a bit off.

A normal 1/2 table averages only 31 hands / hour.
And they average $96 / hour in rake or $3.02/hand

So even if we assume that they get 2x the rake / hand which is high as a lot of pots are not capped, then that's still only an average of $6/hand. So that's $180 rake per hour.

That's $18/hour. That's 4.5bb / hour.

A really good player pre rake should be beating games for 13+ bb / hour so that minus the rake, minus tipping, - 1bb / hour (which is a seat change ever hour, which would be stupid) it still a 6-7bb/hour win rate.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:34 PM   #6774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
I'm not saying the game is super good, but I think your assumptions are a bit off.

A normal 1/2 table averages only 31 hands / hour.
And they average $96 / hour in rake or $3.02/hand

So even if we assume that they get 2x the rake / hand which is high as a lot of pots are not capped, then that's still only an average of $6/hand. So that's $180 rake per hour.
I think your number is a bit too low, but nevertheless it's ~$200/hr.

And I never said whether WR is sustainable; I said the game doesn't seem sustainable.

$200 = 100bb, or 1 player is removed from the game automatically. In 10 hours, a whole table worth of money has been raked.

2 tables running for ~2 days will literally remove 100 BIs from its player pool.

One month? ~1,500 BIs remove from its pool.
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Old 03-23-2014, 11:12 PM   #6775
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Gotcha. I see what you're saying.

Yes, without a super huge player pool, it would dry up really fast.

Or people just don't care, and have deep pockets.
One of the two is needed to sustain the game.
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