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Old 03-07-2014, 10:57 AM   #6651
Avaritia
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

King Fish,

Can you elaborate on the building small pots in position game?

There is a 5/10 player that does this when seated at my 2/5 tables and he absolutely crushes. Just like you describe people think he is a spewer/fish and people do actually bumhunt him. But from what I've seen (and from what a dealer friend says) he is one of the top players in the room.

Say there's 2 limps to him, he'll make it $15 with like 88/JT type hands. This is 2/5 and even if the standard raise at the table is 25-30 he still does this. Why is he doing this? (Yes I realize I can exploit this...and I do...but if the rest of the table isn't, what are the other benefits?)

I get the whole "building pots in position with speculative/medium value hands can't be a bad thing", but how is it superior to iso raising $25/$30?
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:18 AM   #6652
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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
King Fish,

Can you elaborate on the building small pots in position game?

There is a 5/10 player that does this when seated at my 2/5 tables and he absolutely crushes. Just like you describe people think he is a spewer/fish and people do actually bumhunt him. But from what I've seen (and from what a dealer friend says) he is one of the top players in the room.

Say there's 2 limps to him, he'll make it $15 with like 88/JT type hands. This is 2/5 and even if the standard raise at the table is 25-30 he still does this. Why is he doing this? (Yes I realize I can exploit this...and I do...but if the rest of the table isn't, what are the other benefits?)

I get the whole "building pots in position with speculative/medium value hands can't be a bad thing", but how is it superior to iso raising $25/$30?
Im sure he means he raises ip with speculative hands but doesnt vary his raise size according to his hand strength. If he is making "pot sweetner" raises that is very easily exploitable
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:40 AM   #6653
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Here is my theory: The deeper you get into a hand, the more skill becomes a factor. With 2 cards, the decision process is rather simple: Do I have a good hand? If yes raise, if not fold. If I think my hand is really good then let's get as much money in the pot as possible!
Anyone can do this. It doesn't take much skill, just basic poker knowledge and little if any hand-reading analysis. Everyone gets cards pre flop. This is a standard situation to most players. The difference in skill from the best player in the game to an average player will not be very large.

On the flop again decisions are relatively simple. Do I have a good hand? Do I have a good draw? How many outs do I have if I think in behind and am I priced in to draw? Will he fold if I bet?

When a pot is blown up preflop, especially in a 100 BB game, then many of these decisions have already been made for the player, and math can dictate what to do. An average player with basic comprehension may make mistakes here, but they generally won't be egregious especially if math tells him how he should proceed. Again, these is a situation many poker players are familiar with at all levels. Often, this is where the hand ends.

The turn is where generally people don't have as much experience. Especially at lower levels. If the pot here is large then well it can really be simple math what to do. But if the pot was kept small, and stacks are significant, this is where a more experienced player can force average/bad players to make mistakes. It's unfamiliar territory for many. Pair plus flush draw on the turn in a 20 BB pot with 100BB effective stack sizes or TPTK similar Scenario facing sudden pressure what do u do? The answer I find most often is "I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO HERE OMG I DONT KNOW HERE IS SOME SPAZZ PLAY GO AHEAD LEAVE ME ALONE NOW!!

Of course I'm simplifying the above, but you get my gist. My standard opening raise (and again I do adjust to tables) is 3 BB from ep, and 3-4BB mid position. I want callers, I invite callers. I'm cool with making a horribad fold/call with AA OOP in a small pot on an uncoordinated board if I have to. (That again is built into my game. I afford myself lots of small mistakes.) On the flop, in position, I will often price in the flush draws. 20 BB pot, 2 spades, I have an OP? 9bb bet. Here u go I invite you to hit. (This is where a lot of my variance comes in but that is built into my game).

I just gave him appropriate odds (sort of, more on that another time). I want to get him relaxed and comfortable so I can take him out of his element on the later streets. I am a very good hand/person reader and usually know where I am at in a hand, so this affords me that luxury. I play to my strengths and skills. (If those don't happen to be your skill set, playing this type of game is suicide... Stick to math and fundamentals, u won't go wrong.)

I like to keep pots small, watch and observe, the go for the killshot when the time is right. This also means I make lots of bad folds and lots of bad calls. Again, it is built into my game. When I truly don't know where I am in a hand, my default becomes "screw it, jam and let the other guy figure it out." (Or when pot is small fold and eff it.)

If the pot is small and I am OOP, I'll often fold to marginal pressure an "let" the other player walk all over me. Or at least let him think I am his weak tight post-flop *****.

I often let good hands in bad spots go preflop when OOP (ie I rarely call OOP 3 bets with AJs even with good odds, same with mid pairs... Much more likely to call with 56s if I think my call will induce a waterfall effect. Somewhat standard I think but ppl assume I call anything with any two. "You would have called with this hand!" Is something I hear a lot. And quite frankly it couldn't be farther than the truth.

I also show my cards when it suite me. As I said earlier I do what I can to give the players and table the image of me they want me to have. But I show only what I want you to see.

These moves generally don't work in higher games generally when people are more experienced post flop, and people are able to see thru my bull****. And online you Wil absolutely get crushed (obv.)

Also to my advantage is that if u never played with me and were to profile me, you would assume I was a goofy spewy fish just waiting to give his money away. So that gives me another slight EV edge. Watch my game and my bet sizing without paying careful attention and yup, I'm a fish.

Sorry for rambling and for all the typos that are likely to be above. Writing this on a cell phone while waiting for someone and my mind isn't a very linear place in general. Hopefully I answered the question at some point in my rant.

Last edited by King Fish; 03-07-2014 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:58 AM   #6654
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I also want to add to above that obviously I have different gears and speeds. If I think I have an edge in a hand, no matter how marginal, and I can jam all my chips into the middle I will do it (example pair+FD against an OP, I have little qualms 4/5/6 bet shoving for stacks here. Prefer not to be the one calling off but generally will if I have to.)

People know that any hand in which I am involved can quickly become for stacks, and I use that to both get action and affect the action as I want it to happen. (Also because of this I often get lots of free cards when I want them ).

As far as they know, I have no fear and little regard for my money or yours.
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:08 PM   #6655
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:20 PM   #6656
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He plays higher.
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:25 PM   #6657
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Originally Posted by scourrge View Post
Lol. Sick 70% winning sessions - do they just close their eyes and push their chips around???

It's always been my impression that without playing super long average sessions, winning players tend to have somewhere around 55:45 or 60:40 wins:losses. (Looks like you average 3.6 hours/session, which isn't really that long.)
I'm currently sitting at 71.9% after 210 1/3 NL sessions (with average session length being 7.58 hours).

Gcourse,I'mprobablyalsorunninglikeGod'solderbetter lookingbrotherG
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:29 PM   #6658
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Thank you for your insightful post. Alot of what you describe is exactly what he does. I think my biggest leak is not folding in thin spots which a lot of people don't realize is probably one of the biggest factors in a strong lag players game.

When you say most mistakes are made on the turn (and river), can you elaborate? Do you have examples?
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:00 PM   #6659
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I stand corrected on my wins:losses numbers knowledge - thanks for input, fellas.

Thanks for your post, King Fish. I really like the idea of people being extremely experienced preflop, pretty experienced on the flop, and then only marginally experienced on turns and rivers. Especially for tight players, they just aren't going to see that many turns and rivers in which they are being forced to make marginal decisions. Quality post. Thanks again.
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Old 03-07-2014, 01:18 PM   #6660
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Great post and amazing results King Fish.
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:20 AM   #6661
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Whats the name of the phone App you guys are using to track your live sessions? Is it available for Android devices?
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:22 AM   #6662
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Whats the name of the phone App you guys are using to track your live sessions? Is it available for Android devices?
Poker journal. Pretty sure it's on android too
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:39 AM   #6663
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Poker income is the best android app
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:18 AM   #6664
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Poker journal. Pretty sure it's on android too
Poker journal not on android
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Old 03-08-2014, 02:20 PM   #6665
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I use poker manager pro for droid. Same filters and.stuff but I like the clean interface more than poker income. Poker income looks like tron. Personal preferences.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:25 PM   #6666
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My standard opening raise (and again I do adjust to tables) is 3 BB from ep, and 3-4BB mid position.
i guess i've been doing it backwards all this time. my standard raise is 5BB from EP and 4BB from LP. my reasoning is that i only raise premium hands from EP and can withstand a re-raise whereas i want to give up my weaker holding from LP with minimum invested if there's re-raise.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:29 PM   #6667
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My standard is 4bb ep 3bb lp.
Ill make it 5bb ep and 4 bb lp if the table is too loose or if stacks are deep
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:00 PM   #6668
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****. Missed the 6,666th post by two...
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:15 PM   #6669
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Originally Posted by genghiskan View Post
i guess i've been doing it backwards all this time. my standard raise is 5BB from EP and 4BB from LP. my reasoning is that i only raise premium hands from EP and can withstand a re-raise whereas i want to give up my weaker holding from LP with minimum invested if there's re-raise.
Independent of limpers this makes sense. Your range should be wider and weaker in LP, justifying a smaller raise size if the pot is un-opened. But if there are 2-3 limpers in front it your range should be a little tighter (maybe), and you'll need a little larger size to get FE from the limpers.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:11 PM   #6670
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Release the desire for "standard" raise sizes. Figure out the maximum ev size for your particular situation and raise that amount. Live poker is about maximizing every edge, not simplifying decisions

/derail this isn't a strategy thread
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:13 PM   #6671
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Independent of limpers this makes sense. Your range should be wider and weaker in LP, justifying a smaller raise size if the pot is un-opened. But if there are 2-3 limpers in front it your range should be a little tighter (maybe), and you'll need a little larger size to get FE from the limpers.
Ignoring other factors for the moment:

EP: range tighter and open sizing smaller

LP: range wider and open sizing bigger (sometimes much bigger)

They do a pretty go job of explaining this in "Mathematics of Poker", Chen.

~~~~~~~~

King Fish... thanks man. Great post. I'm a big believer in the "trade small mistakes for big ones" philosophy.
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:51 PM   #6672
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In general, I open -larger- from EP (I want people to pay to play hands in position vs me).

In late position, I open smaller, even (or especially) with my big hands, 'cause I want to entice the blinds into playing a hand with me when I'm in position.

Can be very table dynamic, obviously. If there's an aggro guy that loves to pounce on limps or 3-bet, I open small and wait for him to raise the 3 limpers to him etc.
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:54 PM   #6673
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Release the desire for "standard" raise sizes. Figure out the maximum ev size for your particular situation and raise that amount. Live poker is about maximizing every edge, not simplifying decisions

/derail this isn't a strategy thread
Bad habits are bad. Good players will easily sniff out when you are strong or weak based on your sizing. Most good players standardize their raise size pre.

At 10-25 or higher all you see is $75 opens. And the occasional fish who sits down and opens to $125 with AA and everybody folds
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:01 PM   #6674
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don't want to derail this into a strat thread, so to some it up I'll just say this (my actual answer that I started to post was well over 1000 words, and ain't nobody got time for that):

I raise smaller earlier because of my style and preference for multiway action. I am an information junkie, one of my biggest poker strengths is hand reading, and I prefer to see how a hand develops. And because of this style, the main reason I keep early opens small is I would rather not play inflated pots OOP.

The result is that yes, I "spew" quite a bit speculating and don't get optimal early value from monster hands OOP. I lose lots of sklansky bucks and value with big hands in ep, but I do gain it back in volume.

I will post more in a different section why this works for me (and why I tell every student/poker protégée I've ever mentored NOT to play my style or try to replicate it). The short answer is : I have near photographic recall of all hands opponents have played. IOW, I'm lucky enough to have a HUD in my head. It lets me get creative.

And yes, there are times when I vary my opening size but they involve table dynamics and other variables (generally) not associated with hand strength. But generally the 3BB EP opening works well for me. And not just over the 1k hours tracked with poker journal. Have had success with it for many years (live not online necc.).

My VPIP for a full ring low limit NL game is probably somewhere around 35-40%. Fish on a heater.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:53 PM   #6675
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Bad habits are bad. Good players will easily sniff out when you are strong or weak based on your sizing. Most good players standardize their raise size pre.

At 10-25 or higher all you see is $75 opens. And the occasional fish who sits down and opens to $125 with AA and everybody folds
Your not getting it. Weigh your oponnents, not yourselves. I'm not saying open based on hand strength, that's ROFL
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