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Old 03-02-2014, 05:50 PM   #6551
squid face
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Red line is a very large component of someone who crushes 2/5 nlh w/r. For abc straight foreword types who win at a marginal rate it clearly is not.
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Old 03-02-2014, 05:59 PM   #6552
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzed23 View Post
No, I'm not even playing for flips. Usually if there is dead $ on the table, like someone raises $10, 3 callers, and I got AK, then I'll shove it for the squeeze play. And inevitably I get callers with small pairs, AJ, you name it.

I shove with A/10, guy calls with A/4 suited.

Same when I have AK and 4/4 calls. if it's limped around I don't do that, only if there's already $30-50 in play already and I'm last to act.
I have to agree with others - your play sounds spewy.
Shoving in poker should be your last line of defense - not your first.
Since you're rebuying multiple times - why not buy-in for the full 300 and play poker? You'll have more chips to use to protect your big hands and more opportunities to bet/fold when you're beat.

As others said - your short stack shoving strategy is really a high variance game and actually encourages others to call you down lightly. Guys who do this in our games are rarely winning players because they treat the poker table like a roulette table and shove any time they hit a piece of the board. So others play to trap them and eventually felt them.
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:04 PM   #6553
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Originally Posted by HappyLuckBox View Post
That would imply llsnl is not filled with a ton of calling stations, and we know the truth is quite the opposite.

The majority of your profit is always going to be showdown winnings, aka value town
That does not imply that LLSNL is filled with something other than calling stations (though games seem to be moving in that direction).

No one is contesting that showdown is where the majority of your winnings come from, but the point of a winrate thread is, I'd assume, is to see what the highest attainable winrates are.
If you aren't worried about your redline you aren't going to reach you highest possible winrate.
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:22 PM   #6554
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I think the biggest thing with trying to increase your redline is that you are going to do some pretty stupid **** at the onset, but this is pretty true every time you work on changing your game.
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:57 PM   #6555
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
I actually think redline is a pretty big component of a good player's win-rate at 2/5 NL.

More or less, I agree with Kydd's post about strong redline numbers mitigating run bad at 2/5 NL.
how big a component redline is of total wr is game dependent.

regardless, having a strong redline does not mitigate run bad. You can run just as bad on your redline as you do on your green line.
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Old 03-02-2014, 06:59 PM   #6556
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Noob question: What's redline? On-line statistic I assume?

Also, @Jazzed
Don't forget, a good player will take more 'bad beats' per day than a bad player.
It's a fact.

If you count the number of times that you are 1 outted, two outted, 5 outted and 10 outted per day, and compare it to any other random person in the room who is worse than you, you will see that you get more 'bad beats' than they do.

There is a reason for this:
If you are playing well, you are putting your money in as an equity favorite more of the time, so you don't have a chance to put bad beats on other people. You are putting you self into spots where you can get 5 outted a lot because you are consistently 80% to win the pot.

This isn't to imply that in the long term you will win or lose any more or less as a % than someone else in the room, everyone will win 80% of the hands that they are 80% to win in the long run (or something very close) but in any given day you will take more beats than them because you can't put a bad beat on someone else if you are getting your money in good.
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:29 PM   #6557
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Redline is your non-showdown winnings
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Old 03-02-2014, 07:53 PM   #6558
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Duke0424 View Post
Redline is your non-showdown winnings
Thanks.
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Old 03-02-2014, 11:20 PM   #6559
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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U payin way 2 much 4 yer blow sir
for this to be truly constructive criticism you should have PMed me your guys number.

that said, i don't really buy blow all that often, so its not a great tragedy especially when the price includes delivery and i dont have to go anywhere shady.

The real tear-jerker is how much i pay for addy.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:35 AM   #6560
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

ok thanks guys. Good advice all around. I should look at playing with a higher buy-in, like $200-300. I just thought with a short stack, it would limit my risk and I just shove with good hands. Also my bankroll isn't the highest.
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:39 AM   #6561
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

LEAKS- what's the biggest leaks that you see from regular players in $1/2?

1- people calling too light, calling all-in's with the nut flush or OE straight draw. Or 2 pair when the board has completed.

2-betting too little when they have the nuts on flop, only to be busted by river.

Any leaks you guys see often? And how best to exploit them?
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:41 AM   #6562
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They call too much.

Exploit it by value betting a lot and folding to raises
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Old 03-03-2014, 12:49 AM   #6563
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Look at your red line WITHOUT all the hands you played in the small blind and big blind. It's probably positive assuming your showdown winnings are also positive. Most people have a negative red line because they fold too often from the big blind and small blind. That's a GOOD thing. You should be folding from the big bling and small blind.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:47 AM   #6564
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by squid face View Post
Red line is a very large component of someone who crushes 2/5 nlh w/r. For abc straight foreword types who win at a marginal rate it clearly is not.
Redline for most winning online players is usually slightly negative or breakeven.
I'm crushing 2-5 and although I dont have a hud to track it, I am sure my redline is slightly negative to breakeven. You could say I mostly play abc 1-2-3, and that is because table dynamics usually dictate my style.

Last edited by HappyLuckBox; 03-03-2014 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:49 AM   #6565
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by PoppaTMan View Post
HLB,

You're going to be limiting your winrate with that kind of thinking. If you go into every hand with the mindset of "well, nobody folds any piece of the board", your development as a poker player is going to peak pretty quickly. Identifying good boards/targets for cbets, multi-street barrels, and floats are necessary skills if you want to maximize your winrate and mitigate the natural variance inherent in LLSNL due to small sample size.

All i said is that the majority of your profit at llsnl comes from valuetowning vour opponents, as opposed to nonshowdown winnings. You make me sound like a nit. I can assure you I am certainly capable of all those things, with the right dynamics at play. But if people are going to come in here and say your redline is a MAJOR component to beating llsnl, well no it just is not true.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:55 AM   #6566
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatty View Post
Look at your red line WITHOUT all the hands you played in the small blind and big blind. It's probably positive assuming your showdown winnings are also positive. Most people have a negative red line because they fold too often from the big blind and small blind. That's a GOOD thing. You should be folding from the big bling and small blind.
Makes sense. I never filted my online database for that, but i would imagine my redline would be slightly positive if i could factor out sb/bb
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:56 AM   #6567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzed23 View Post
LEAKS- what's the biggest leaks that you see from regular players in $1/2?

1- people calling too light, calling all-in's with the nut flush or OE straight draw. Or 2 pair when the board has completed.

2-betting too little when they have the nuts on flop, only to be busted by river.

Any leaks you guys see often? And how best to exploit them?
Calling way too wide disregarding position preflop. And along that line, paying no attention to (a good player) pf raiser's position and size.

Oh I'd make so, so much less money if they ever caught on to this.

Exploitation: 3bet ip. Cbet most flops if they arent the sticky call flop with anything type. Value bet the heck out of them because they cant tell when you have it or not.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:16 PM   #6568
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Moving up to 5/10 nl

Don't know if this is the correct forum I have been playing 1/2 and 2/5 and sometimes 1/3 on weekends and have a decent understanding of the game usually buy in for 100bb at the 3 levels I don't have my hourly win rate etc since i don't keep track of that stuff I have saved up $ 9000 with poker and my own personal savings from working ( not going to quit my job) is that enough to move up to 5/10 and 10/20 nlhe what adjustments should I make while playing at these levels all advice is appreciated thanks ! Been playing for about 2 years now

Last edited by osucowboy0510; 03-03-2014 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:32 PM   #6569
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Re: Moving up to 5/10 nl

That's only 9 buyins good bank roll is 20 minium of 10. U could play it to see how you do some ppl move up with 5 buyins to see how they do
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:38 PM   #6570
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Re: Moving up to 5/10 nl

I don't play that high but my goal is to move up to $2/5 when I hit a BR of $10,000 and that will only leave me with 20 BI's at 100 BB's. I started $1/2 with a BR of only a few hundred (could add more from my job if needed) but I think the higher you move up the more of a cushion you want in case you are outmatched.

I personally wouldn't play $5/10 with only $9000. That leaves you with only 9 BI's. Not a very large cushion. Why not just grind out another $11k at $2/5? I think that way when you hit $5/10 you will have that much more experience, confidence and you won't be playing with scared money being afraid of variance.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:11 PM   #6571
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Re: Moving up to 5/10 nl

Ok assuming you have the bankroll, aside from just better all around play, are there any big differences?
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:14 PM   #6572
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Re: Moving up to 5/10 nl

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Originally Posted by Atmu2006 View Post
Ok assuming you have the bankroll, aside from just better all around play, are there any big differences?
It depends a lot in how you have approached the lower limit NL games.

For example, if you have been mostly an ABC player making money off good table selection, then 5/10 would seem like a different world.

There isn't really an answer without thoroughly examining one's game.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:28 PM   #6573
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Re: Moving up to 5/10 nl

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Originally Posted by Atmu2006 View Post
Ok assuming you have the bankroll, aside from just better all around play, are there any big differences?
Yes. Too much to explain in this pointless thread but bluffing/bluff catching are far more frequent/significant the higher stakes you play. Another way of putting it is redline should be directly correlated with stake, gaining significance the higher you go. (Though I am in the "redline is hugely overrated" camp, but that is another story)

OP what you are doing is suicide but you won't listen to us anyways. Have fun.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:28 PM   #6574
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Re: Moving up to 5/10 nl

Surprising to see a min of 20 buy-ins as a level here ... most of the books I have seen suggest 40 to 60 BI before moving up.

I dont really have the bankroll to play 2-5 but I have found that I usually am at a much better game for my style at that level than 1-2 and thus more successful when I get a chance to play it ... which is not very often. I am playing 1-2 or 1-3 rxr most of the time in my area.

I think the biggest 'factor' of moving up is you are (should be) playing against a better player pool (unless Vegas) and you need to pay more attention to position as most players know more about 'the game' than just 'the cards'. I play way less hands per orbit/session also. It was scared money the first few times, but I got over that fairly quickly once folks started to show their holdings and I learned that my reads were basically still the same as 1-2.

I have never played 5-10 but I have been told that it is the toughest level to play at when moving up the stakes ladder. I would assume that the game is even slower than 2-5 but don't have anything to base that off of except a hunch.

Good Luck if you give it a try, but I think you will need to play closer to the vest and if your style doesn't allow for that then you may get impatient and a reg will take advantage of that. GL
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Old 03-03-2014, 04:07 PM   #6575
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I think once you enter 5-10 you run into alot more tight regs and starting to open up your game with more bluffs/bluff catchers/floats/etc becomes part of the game

So in effect yes redline becomes slightly more important, since showdowns become more rare the higher stakes you go up
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