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Old 01-21-2014, 02:44 PM   #6226
Angrist
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by 11t View Post
I'm just saying that a 2 dollar buy in game is meaningless and a waste of time and I'd put the bottom end of like worthwhile stakes at 25 nl for somebody playing 1/2

might not be expressing what I'm trying to say right
Agreed.

When I used to play online I gave up moving up for exactly this reason. I could beat 2NL and 5NL without much hassle ... but at the end of the day it made more sense in terms of $/hr to go to the casino and play $1/2 instead.

It would be a different story now that I'm better and should be able to move up past that consistently online. We'll see when it finally comes back how juicy the games end up.
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Old 01-21-2014, 02:45 PM   #6227
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

While I think the 10x rule does have a ring of general truth to it, Black Friday taught us that making the transition from online to live is not as seamless as we would like it to be. Many people predicted there would be an influx of poker players to live casinos after Black Friday and that proved not to happen. Yes, sure a handful did, but the majority of American players either moved to places they could continue to play online or started over on sites that cater to American players or got real jobs or altered their lifestyle down.

While there are many truths about "poker" that crossover from live to online and vice versa, there are also many unique qualities to each that do not crossover and yet are essential for success. For example, for most online grinders, the HUD is pretty essential as is multitabling. For live play, there is no HUD or multitabling. So, a crucial skill that live players need that many online players either didn't have or didn't want to cultivate was patience. Having the patience to grind one table 4 to 8 hours a day and deal with the suckouts, bad beats, coolers, and swings is not as easy as it might sound - especially if you're used to 6 to 24 tabling FR or 12 tables of 6 max or a couple of tables of headsup.

So, while the skill argument may be valid when you're trying to assess whether you can successfully crossover to one or the other, it's the other factors that weigh more heavily. Can an online player stay focused and handle the boredom and not tilt? Can they handle the new hassles of having to put on clothes, leave the house, game select, have less choices, no rakeback, and so on? Can the live player multitask and play more tables and learn to use a HUD and do more without live tells? There's no one size fits all. A lot of it plays into individual personalities and if you've done one long enough or enjoy one more than the other.

I'm sure most legitimate winning players online could transition to live if they put their mind to it and vice versa, but there's a lot more factors and work they're going to have to put into it - there's definitely no rules or formula for future success, though.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:02 PM   #6228
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm looking to build my own Excel spreadsheet to keep track of my results. To anybody who did this and uses a BB field, I have a question. I want to be able to track three different NL games: $1-$2, $2-$5, and $1-$2-$5 (blinds are $1 and $2, but any action coming in must be at least $5). What would you consider to be the BB in this case? Any tips for how to keep it separate from 1-2 and 2-5, or if it would be more accurate to lump it in with one of those games?
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:05 PM   #6229
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The big blind is 2... but you should add a column that is "structure" that allows you to distinguish a 1/2 5 game from a 1/2 game down the road. Also, you will probably want to record buy in structure with your records ($500 2/5 is much different than $1000 2/5, etc.)

Last edited by bip!; 01-21-2014 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:22 PM   #6230
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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IMO all in EV is a somewhat overblown stat... much more variance in flops/turns/coolers/draws-whiff-or-hit before the money goes in.
This. People seem to put so much stock into all in ev probably because it's the only part of variance you can measure. In the big scheme of how you're running overall it's not as important as people make it out to be.

Keeping track of your all in ev would be pretty pointless.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:23 PM   #6231
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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This. People seem to put so much stock into all in ev probably because it's the only part of variance you can measure. In the big scheme of how you're running overall it's not as important as people make it out to be.

Keeping track of your all in ev would be pretty pointless.
Can you measure it? If you run like god and get AA vs KK AIPF 10x in a short-time period and lose 3/10 times, are you really running below EV?
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:39 PM   #6232
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Can you measure it? If you run like god and get AA vs KK AIPF 10x in a short-time period and lose 3/10 times, are you really running below EV?
Yes...
It's just not significant results.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:03 PM   #6233
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by WinEvryRacex View Post
Can you measure it? If you run like god and get AA vs KK AIPF 10x in a short-time period and lose 3/10 times, are you really running below EV?
That's basically my point.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:34 PM   #6234
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Always heard its 10x rule, as in the difficultly of a .25-.50 online game is about the same as a 2-5 live game. Although that was before Black Friday and the games are much tougher online now so idk if that still holds true
There are plenty of 5/10 winning online regs I play regularly. In live games, I have a decent edge and basicay crush them. Online against them, I would be toast.

I rarely played higher than 3/6 online, with the majority being 1/2 and 2/4. Had a decent w/r but nothing spectacular. I play mostly 2/5 live primarily bexause of availability, and play 5/10 when I can. The deeper the stacks, the bigger my edge. I'm not a huge fan if being 100bb effective.

I crush these limits live, but If I were to take the same style of game I play live and apply them directly to an online 1/2 game, I would get crushed. Different skill sets, different approaches to the game.

While I doubt a 5/10 NL pro would ever be a losing 2/5-5/10 NL player, you can't assume he would have an edge at 10/25+ live. And a winning 5/10 live player is just as likely to be able to beat NL400 as he is to be a loser at NL100, IMO.

Last edited by King Fish; 01-21-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:51 PM   #6235
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

So most of the graphs people post in here are total winnings over hours played, total winnings over sessions played, etc. Does anybody with a decent sample size have graphs of hourly rate over time? Y-Axis showing cumulative dollars per hour, X-Axis showing cumulative hours or session number. I think it would be interesting to see how steady that line gets after a while. Not sure if this is doable in the tracking apps.
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:53 PM   #6236
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
There are plenty of 5/10 winning online regs I play regularly. In live games, I have a decent edge and basicay crush them. Online against them, I would be toast.

I rarely played higher than 3/6 online, with the majority being 1/2 and 2/4. Had a decent w/r but nothing spectacular. I play mostly 2/5 live primarily bexause of availability, and play 5/10 when I can. The deeper the stacks, the bigger my edge. I'm not a huge fan if being 100bb effective.

I crush these limits live, but If I were to take the same style of game I play live and apply them directly to an online 1/2 game, I would get crushed. Different skill sets, different approaches to the game.

While I doubt a 5/10 NL pro would ever be a losing 2/5-5/10 NL player, you can't assume he would have an edge at 10/25+ live. And a winning 5/10 live player is just as likely to be able to beat NL400 as he is to be a loser at NL100, IMO.
All very true...easier to transition from on-line to live GENERALLY than the other way around. Would be curious to see what you think the biggest hole in your game would be if you moved to on-line play? I know or at least I think I know what my weaknesses are relative to midstakes online player pools.

Good stuff.
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Old 01-23-2014, 06:40 PM   #6237
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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All very true...easier to transition from on-line to live GENERALLY than the other way around. Would be curious to see what you think the biggest hole in your game would be if you moved to on-line play? I know or at least I think I know what my weaknesses are relative to midstakes online player pools.

Good stuff.
IMO live is more art and online more science. Online I lean towards math to dictate my play. Live I get a bit more creative and use the additional info the live game provides to my advantage.

I'm a much better, and more dangerous, live player.
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Old 01-23-2014, 06:59 PM   #6238
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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
IMO live is more art and online more science. Online I lean towards math to dictate my play. Live I get a bit more creative and use the additional info the live game provides to my advantage.

I'm a much better, and more dangerous, live player.
Well put.

I wholeheartedly agree your statement about the creativity/art of live vs math online.

From the last 2 posts it sounds like we r brothers from other mothers- except im the more handsome brother

Regarding win rate over time, I currently use poker income pro and it does not graph that stat. I can filter just about anything and see the results yet I can only graph a limited number of stats.
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Old 01-23-2014, 06:59 PM   #6239
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
IMO live is more art and online more science. Online I lean towards math to dictate my play. Live I get a bit more creative and use the additional info the live game provides to my advantage.

I'm a much better, and more dangerous, live player.
i learned how to play live and agree 100%. i am pretty good with physical tells especially with timing, word play and posture

a lot of this is due to the fish in live, honestly im crushing the 5/10 game here where i play bc the players are awful. wouldnt be winning 50nl players IMO
but bc ive learned so much crushing these idiots i know im a good player all around wherever i play.

honestly 2/5 players around the country are generally pretty bad, i can go to any 2/5 game and be the best or second best at the table

-alsa a persons demographics and appearance can tell you everything. i know which kids are money scared and whio are not. also chip stacks can tell you as well- tight players stack there chips perfectly and pay perfect attention to them. whereas looser players keep them more messy

i keep mine in increments of 20 and pretty neat but dont pay attention to them. i play tight pre but am capable of anything post and i am pretty sure anyone could tell by my image and appearance (also my 10k wallet that i always have lol)
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Old 01-23-2014, 07:12 PM   #6240
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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i am pretty good with physical tells especially with timing, word play and posture

-alsa a persons demographics and appearance can tell you everything. i know which kids are money scared and whio are not. also chip stacks can tell you as well- tight players stack there chips perfectly and pay perfect attention to them. whereas looser players keep them more messy
First I was like...if it's only that easy. Then it all kind of makes sense.

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i play tight pre but am capable of anything post and i am pretty sure anyone could tell by my image and appearance (also my 10k wallet that i always have lol)
It isn't that easy - just that you think it is.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:15 AM   #6241
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Dirty313 View Post

i keep mine in increments of 20 and pretty neat but dont pay attention to them. i play tight pre but am capable of anything post and i am pretty sure anyone could tell by my image and appearance (also my 10k wallet that i always have lol)
10K in the wallet, or the wallet itself cost 10K. If the latter, i can tell youre probably out of your damn mind, though i also think the same thing about people with expensive watches.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:17 AM   #6242
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MUMTG View Post
So most of the graphs people post in here are total winnings over hours played, total winnings over sessions played, etc. Does anybody with a decent sample size have graphs of hourly rate over time? Y-Axis showing cumulative dollars per hour, X-Axis showing cumulative hours or session number. I think it would be interesting to see how steady that line gets after a while. Not sure if this is doable in the tracking apps.
+1

Could be done pretty easily if people could export their data from a tracking app - the apps themselves don't have that kind of graph (to my knowledge).
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:19 PM   #6243
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Hey. I don't have a graphical representation of hourly fluctuations but I can tell you this. I have almost 1700 hours logged and my hourly always sits between 30-40. Example. I lost 10k in two sessions and my hourly dropped from 40 to 34. But for the most part, once I hit 1500 hours or so, the hourly doesn't move a whole lot. Almost always in the 30-40 window. Not sure if this helps.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:07 PM   #6244
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Apologies, but I originally posted this in the main forum and was told to re-direct: (original post below)

OK, maybe I am too OCD for my own good, but do you/should you count your commute to the casino when calculating your hourly win rate?

It normally takes me 20-45 minutes to get to the casino, 15-45 minutes on a wait list and 20-45 minutes to get back. All told that is 1-2+ hours. If I actually included this my 6-8 hour playing sessions go down in profitability by up to 33%.

I know no one lives at the casino and I am not playing during the commute, but if we are strictly talking about the "value of my time", the commute is there.

Thoughts?
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:19 PM   #6245
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Do you consider your commute in your hourly for your job?

It's just all about how you want to think about it - your poker hourly, or your trip hourly. Obviously you're not playing poker while commuting, so it's irrelevant to your actual win-rate. But it still matters in terms of opportunity cost and other considerations. So use whatever makes sense for the specific thing you're thinking about. Poker Journal allows you to enter "break time" for sessions, so you could always include that for your commute time.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:21 PM   #6246
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Originally Posted by skiing7654 View Post
Apologies, but I originally posted this in the main forum and was told to re-direct: (original post below)

OK, maybe I am too OCD for my own good, but do you/should you count your commute to the casino when calculating your hourly win rate?

It normally takes me 20-45 minutes to get to the casino, 15-45 minutes on a wait list and 20-45 minutes to get back. All told that is 1-2+ hours. If I actually included this my 6-8 hour playing sessions go down in profitability by up to 33%.

I know no one lives at the casino and I am not playing during the commute, but if we are strictly talking about the "value of my time", the commute is there.

Thoughts?


No.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:30 PM   #6247
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by skiing7654 View Post
Apologies, but I originally posted this in the main forum and was told to re-direct: (original post below)

OK, maybe I am too OCD for my own good, but do you/should you count your commute to the casino when calculating your hourly win rate?

It normally takes me 20-45 minutes to get to the casino, 15-45 minutes on a wait list and 20-45 minutes to get back. All told that is 1-2+ hours. If I actually included this my 6-8 hour playing sessions go down in profitability by up to 33%.

I know no one lives at the casino and I am not playing during the commute, but if we are strictly talking about the "value of my time", the commute is there.

Thoughts?
If poker was my sole source of income If I was relying on poker as an income stream, then I would track all the hours and expenses I spent generating that income. IOW: playing, commuting, studying, poker-housekeeping (i.e. managing the money), expenses.

In that case, it would be identical to the way I track any other personal business.

However, for me, since poker is essentially a profitable hobby, I only track the time spent being dealt cards.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:31 PM   #6248
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Skipping over whether you actually should be calculating an hourly rate, it doesn't matter. Whatever makes you feel better about it.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:41 PM   #6249
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I think its natural and healthy to want to figure out this number for future planning. I don't, however, believe you should use it an excuse or method to work on your game.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:58 PM   #6250
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiing7654 View Post
Apologies, but I originally posted this in the main forum and was told to re-direct: (original post below)

OK, maybe I am too OCD for my own good, but do you/should you count your commute to the casino when calculating your hourly win rate?

It normally takes me 20-45 minutes to get to the casino, 15-45 minutes on a wait list and 20-45 minutes to get back. All told that is 1-2+ hours. If I actually included this my 6-8 hour playing sessions go down in profitability by up to 33%.

I know no one lives at the casino and I am not playing during the commute, but if we are strictly talking about the "value of my time", the commute is there.

Thoughts?
If you drove to a regular hourly paying job, would you count your commute time then when calculating your hourly winrate?
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