Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-04-2013, 11:37 AM   #5851
bwslim69
I'm a Diva, Bruh
 
bwslim69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TPS reports
Posts: 24,037
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Jack,

In the scenario you describe; yes the 60k would be reported as other income on the front page of the 1040 and the 10k is an "Other Itemized Deduction" on Sch A (assuming not a pro player). You do not "net" these together.

I have been through several audits with pro poker players. All I can say is the more info the better; for sure: Place, Cash in to the game/caash out, date, stakes, etc. I don't think length of session would be a requirement but it obv wouldn't hurt.
bwslim69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 11:57 AM   #5852
kauch12
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 62
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Just hit 5k in profits. 95% 1/2 with a little 1/3 mixed in. Took one shot at 2/5 and lost $1,200 losing a $1,500 pot with AA to KK AIPF. 2/5 loss filtered out of the stats. Will take another shot soon. Live 1/2 players are so bad. If you play at Parx and want to be friends PM me.

kauch12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 02:22 PM   #5853
pure_aggression
Pooh-Bah
 
pure_aggression's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pure Aggression on YouTube
Posts: 5,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperyAces View Post
Hi! This has been undoubtedly answered here earlier but I thought I would ask!

For the most successful live players who kill the game/walk the tight rope successfully...

What is their win rate for 2/5?

And also because being I am in Colorado where the game is 2/5 100 (100 max raise) what would be the absolute best win rate someone could get there (I presume it be lower)?

Then for both what would you say is the lower "target" win rate that successful ABC TAG players can expect?
10bb/hr is about as high as what possible to sustain long-term. With the 100 max bet rule, it will hinder winning players tremendously. I used to play a 200 max bet game, I didn't realize there was such a big difference until a played a lot of true nl in LV.

As far as a lower target, well if you are breakeven after rake you are already in the top 20-30% of the player pool, the vast majority lose. So winning anything consistently is a good sign, there are probably many more winners making 0-5bb/hr than 5-10bb/hr. Just play well and find the softest games.
pure_aggression is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 05:35 PM   #5854
SlipperyAces
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 305
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

since i started keeping good track of everything im at 10xbb/hr in the 100 spread game over 22 sessions over last 2.5 months. i was told in the CO thread this isnt sustainable. just wanted to check.
SlipperyAces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 02:35 AM   #5855
1968
veteran
 
1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,218
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

lol hand today at 2/4.. active youngish asian dude to my right won't fold to 3/4 bets. Playing 9 handed.

Fish $300
Swewy Asian $900
Hero $700

Fish raises EP to $20, S/A 3bets HJ to $50. Hero 4bet AA in CO to $170. S/A calls.

FLOP ($370): KQ3r

S/A snap donks $300 and starts analysing his phone. Hero ships $200 more and he calls with JJ. I guess he's committed here on this flop.
1968 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 09:52 AM   #5856
Raidion
grinder
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: on the streets
Posts: 588
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Any tips on a long breakeven stretch? I've played 1k hours of live poker in the last year and have been a winning player but have had a 150 hour (slightly negative) breakeven stretch.

Just not used to having my sessions go -200,+100,+20,+1,+20, etc. Any thoughts?
Raidion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 10:48 AM   #5857
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Raidion,

Just work on your game and fix any/all leaks. As long as you are properly rolled for the games that you play, you just need to focus on playing your "A" game as much as possible.

In the long run, improving your skills so you increase your long-run expected win-rate is the only way to survive the inevitable horrific downswings that could hit you like a hurricane at any point in time.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 10:53 AM   #5858
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In my biased opinion, the absolutely best way of avoiding the biggest stings of negative variance is to work extra hard on stealing a ridiculous amount of money in good bluff spots. People at LLSNL grossly underestimate the number of small and medium pots that can be stolen if you have the drive and awareness to spot those common yet highly profitable bluff spots.

Even if you run like dog poop in all-in situations and keep running into the wrong side of coolers, yoi can still turn a profit by being a beast at bluffing small and medium size pots.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 11:01 AM   #5859
kauch12
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 62
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
In my biased opinion, the absolutely best way of avoiding the biggest stings of negative variance is to work extra hard on stealing a ridiculous amount of money in good bluff spots. People at LLSNL grossly underestimate the number of small and medium pots that can be stolen if you have the drive and awareness to spot those common yet highly profitable bluff spots.

Even if you run like dog poop in all-in situations and keep running into the wrong side of coolers, yoi can still turn a profit by being a beast at bluffing small and medium size pots.
I agree with this big time. People say you can't bluff at low stakes. It's true there are certain players you shouldn't try and bluff, but there are plenty of players that you can. Also always be very aware of your image and who is paying attention. If I have been playing tight for a few orbits I'm much more inclined to fire bullets against a player that I feel has noticed that I've been tight.

No table or situation is ever the same. Poker isn't played in a vacuum so general statements like you can't ever bluff at 1/2 are shortsighted and dumb imo. Adjust and outplay the players at the table, that is what poker is all about.

Last edited by kauch12; 11-05-2013 at 11:16 AM.
kauch12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 01:11 PM   #5860
Miamipuck
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Getting Sodomized by Frist
Posts: 947
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Here is my very abbreviated story. I have been a member here forever, more a lurker than anything.

I just started playing again after a 4 1/2 year layoff. I was killing it online before Frist did his Internet Gaming bill, for instance in one of my last tournaments on Party poker, I chopped a nightly $22 40k guaranteed for 7k. Subsequently, I started playing live. I quickly moved from 1/2 --> 2/5 -->5/10 when the $100 limit was in effect here in Florida. I was doing quite well, playing 5-6 times a week. I was laid off from being a bond trader as UBS closed 1/2 their Orlando municipal trading desk 8 months after promoting me, and was chilling in between jobs.

In late 2008, I just was getting very bored with poker. I never considered myself a pro, I don't think I was good enough even though I made money at it. I was in the middle of a big hand and my cell phone was stolen. They (Hard Rock Hollywood fl) had it on camera and did nothing about it. I got fed up and just quit.

My Dad, who was playing regularly, said Aug 31, "come play poker with me, I will stake you."

He lent me $500 and I started playing 1/2 again. Here are my stats so far just playing Fri/Sat the occasional Sun night on a holiday weekend:

I use Poker Session Logger for Android, and try and get it accurate as possible. I do admit sometimes I forget to start the session but always adjust it as close as possible later.

21 Sessions
Profit:3054
Hrly Profit: 40.72/h
Stnd Dev: 110.53/h
Total Time 3d3h0m
Longest session 6h36m
Best Session:785
Winning Sessions:15

I do my best to hand read with the maniacs I play with and put myself in good situations. That said, I play too nitty and know it. I have recently finished Playing the Player and am now reading Doug Hull's book which is essentially a follow up. Anyway, I know I have tons and tons of work to do before I move up this time around.

Last edited by Miamipuck; 11-05-2013 at 01:16 PM.
Miamipuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 01:16 PM   #5861
Richard Parker
banned
 
Richard Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right Side of Variance
Posts: 13,951
You lost me at being a bond trader and dad staking you $500 at 1/2.
Richard Parker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 01:18 PM   #5862
bwslim69
I'm a Diva, Bruh
 
bwslim69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TPS reports
Posts: 24,037
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
You lost me at being a bond trader and dad staking you $500 at 1/2.
bwslim69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 01:20 PM   #5863
Miamipuck
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Getting Sodomized by Frist
Posts: 947
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
You lost me at being a bond trader and dad staking you $500 at 1/2.
Sorry I was just trying to give a brief background on me. I am not bragging, I am definitely not a trader that was making 8 mill a year. Hell I am not even doing that any longer.

Edit: I had $500, My Dad was trying to get me to play again, as I/he didn't think I ever would again. I suppose it sounds like I didn't have $500 to play, that's not the case.

Further Edit: So as not to get off on the wrong foot in this forum, if you think I wasn't telling the truth, Goofyballer, a mod in the small stakes NL/PL forum and I go back a long way and I am certain will vouch for the veracity of my post.

Last edited by Miamipuck; 11-05-2013 at 01:47 PM.
Miamipuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 12:14 PM   #5864
ECGrinder
old hand
 
ECGrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Vegas
Posts: 1,204
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
In my biased opinion, the absolutely best way of avoiding the biggest stings of negative variance is to work extra hard on stealing a ridiculous amount of money in good bluff spots. People at LLSNL grossly underestimate the number of small and medium pots that can be stolen if you have the drive and awareness to spot those common yet highly profitable bluff spots.

Even if you run like dog poop in all-in situations and keep running into the wrong side of coolers, yoi can still turn a profit by being a beast at bluffing small and medium size pots.
dangerous advice to someone who's skill level is not significantly above the field.... looking for spots to make buff "plays" in an overly aggressive manner is one of the biggest leaks that I see in friends that are break-even players
ECGrinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 12:22 PM   #5865
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECGrinder View Post
dangerous advice to someone who's skill level is not significantly above the field.... looking for spots to make buff "plays" in an overly aggressive manner is one of the biggest leaks that I see in friends that are break-even players
ECGrinder,

If you are willing to learn the good bluff spots, you will find out that successfully bluffing small to medium size pots where no one has anything (or anything good) will save you during sessions where you are card dead/taking bad beats/getting coolered. Inevitably, all poker players go through soul-crushing downswings where they can't seem to win any big pots.

You are correct that mediocre players shouldn't try to bluff too much because they are bad at hand-reading and other skills that are necessary to bluff successfully.

At the same time, however, I was directing this advice towards a player (Raidion) who is probably significantly better than the other players in his player pool.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #5866
ATsai
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Orange County/LA, CA
Posts: 2,409
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

As far as practicing what I preach...several of my local LA students who have personally watched me play on their 5/5 NL or 5/10 NL tables would tell you that I win a RIDICULOUS amount of $$$ with airball.

The truth is that there is a gold mine of money to be made from bluffing the right spots in 2/5 NL and 5/5 NL games. If you don't want to take the risks of prospecting that gold mine, so be it. But then don't complain about all the bad beats and coolers that you will suffer at some point. If you only count on winnning with the best hand and coolering fish, then you will always be at the mercy of variance.
ATsai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 12:34 PM   #5867
ECGrinder
old hand
 
ECGrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Vegas
Posts: 1,204
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
ECGrinder,

If you are willing to learn the good bluff spots, you will find out that successfully bluffing small to medium size pots where no one has anything (or anything good) will save you during sessions where you are card dead/taking bad beats/getting coolered. Inevitably, all poker players go through soul-crushing downswings where they can't seem to win any big pots.

You are correct that mediocre players shouldn't try to bluff too much because they are bad at hand-reading and other skills that are necessary to bluff successfully.

At the same time, however, I was directing this advice towards a player (Raidion) who is probably significantly better than the other players in his player pool.
Sounds like part of my game that I would like to improve upon! This might not be the right thread, but could you somewhere explain a few of the bluff spots that you are talking about? I'm guessing that you are going beyond the simple stuff, i.e. I've been card dead, tight image, increase cbet%, squeeze, etc.
ECGrinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 12:44 PM   #5868
Duke0424
self-banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Desert
Posts: 13,365
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECGrinder View Post
Sounds like part of my game that I would like to improve upon! This might not be the right thread, but could you somewhere explain a few of the bluff spots that you are talking about? I'm guessing that you are going beyond the simple stuff, i.e. I've been card dead, tight image, increase cbet%, squeeze, etc.
Here are a couple posts I made on bluffing:

These are just based on my observations at 1/2 and 1/3 where I think I could get people to fold better hands. But unlike ATsai, I am by no means an expert. I am like you in that I am trying to improve this part of my game and find more spots for this. In my last session, I was able to use a tight image to raise a c-better and a caller with just a flush draw and get two folds. Using your image is one of the best weapons when bluffing.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=11

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...1&postcount=12
Duke0424 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 01:04 PM   #5869
11t
Bo Pelini's #1 Fan
 
11t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spewville
Posts: 31,421
This is a specific thread for specific things but I think the biggest bluff spots you should start looking for are when you you have low relative sdv and 4 card flush and straight hits then work from there.
11t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 01:12 PM   #5870
11t
Bo Pelini's #1 Fan
 
11t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Spewville
Posts: 31,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69 View Post
Jack,

In the scenario you describe; yes the 60k would be reported as other income on the front page of the 1040 and the 10k is an "Other Itemized Deduction" on Sch A (assuming not a pro player). You do not "net" these together.

I have been through several audits with pro poker players. All I can say is the more info the better; for sure: Place, Cash in to the game/caash out, date, stakes, etc. I don't think length of session would be a requirement but it obv wouldn't hurt.
do you pay state taxes where the casino is located?
11t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #5871
bwslim69
I'm a Diva, Bruh
 
bwslim69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TPS reports
Posts: 24,037
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t View Post
do you pay state taxes where the casino is located?
Each state is weird. Really specific to your sitch. Has to do with number of days in the state, amount you won in the state, whether you are a pro, etc. Impossible to answer.

I doubt many cash players are filing multi state returns but I suspect if you have a big score in, say, a Borgata MTT you will need to/should file in NJ.

All my poker clients are CG players.
bwslim69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 12:29 AM   #5872
Pay4Myschool
Haz Chuck Norris 4 Dad
 
Pay4Myschool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Michigan / California
Posts: 7,473
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post
As far as practicing what I preach...several of my local LA students who have personally watched me play on their 5/5 NL or 5/10 NL tables would tell you that I win a RIDICULOUS amount of $$$ with airball.

The truth is that there is a gold mine of money to be made from bluffing the right spots in 2/5 NL and 5/5 NL games. If you don't want to take the risks of prospecting that gold mine, so be it. But then don't complain about all the bad beats and coolers that you will suffer at some point. If you only count on winnning with the best hand and coolering fish, then you will always be at the mercy of variance.
Best quote ever
Pay4Myschool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #5873
lbrasci
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Value Town, USA
Posts: 380
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATsai View Post

The truth is that there is a gold mine of money to be made from bluffing the right spots in 2/5 NL and 5/5 NL games. If you don't want to take the risks of prospecting that gold mine, so be it. But then don't complain about all the bad beats and coolers that you will suffer at some point. If you only count on winnning with the best hand and coolering fish, then you will always be at the mercy of variance.
^ this x1000000

One thing I would like to add when doing this is "Know your Opponent".
lbrasci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 09:39 PM   #5874
Illiterate
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 1,237
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Not usually the bragging type, but damn it, I'm proud of myself. This is my last 90 days:



90% 2/5NL, with some random PLO and other stakes in there.
Illiterate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013, 09:42 PM   #5875
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,215
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Sick run dude. Nice to see you made it out of your slump.
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive