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Old 11-02-2013, 11:22 AM   #5826
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I suppose you should count study hours towards your hourly if you are or want to be a pro.

You also don't get a 401k which includes company matching, cheap or free health insurance, paid vacation days, bonuses. You also miss out on potential higher paying jobs.

These are just some things you must weigh against the reasons for becoming a pro.
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:28 PM   #5827
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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So my question would be: Wouldn't Player X's actual true winrate be lower since he spends many hours during the month studying poker? Unlike a regular person who doesn't bring home work or studies for work?

Say player X spends 2 hours a day studying poker in a month so that's 60 hours. So would his true winrate be $8000/ (160hrs+60hrs) = 7.27bb/ hour instead of 10bb/ hour?

If you are comparing the hourly earnings of a poker pro to a regular hourly wage earner, what you are saying definitely has some merit. Assuming that a typical poker pro makes $30+/hr., however, there aren't too many hourly jobs that pay $30+/ hour.

In my opinion, it would be more accurate if you compare the hourly earnings of a typical poker pro to that of a salaried wage earner. When we calculate the yearly salary, you multiply your hourly x 2,080 (40hrs a week x 52 weeks in a year).

When you are on salary, you don't get paid overtime. At my previous job, no one at manager and above put in 8 hours a day. They all worked 10+ hrs a day, and sometimes on the weekends too. Also, you'd be naive to think that they don't bring work home.

All in all, I'd say that a poker pro making $50/hr is fairly equivalent to a regular person making $100k a year on salary, in terms of strictly monetary value.
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:43 PM   #5828
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Not if you consider vacation, sick pays, insurance, and other benefits.

You may walk away with the same cash value in "best" case scenario and only then.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:51 AM   #5829
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Managed to play every day in October, good results with couple of 2/5 sessions mixed in. Probably put in 300 hours this month between work and poker

That is a truly sick month at 1/2. How many hours?
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:16 AM   #5830
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Heater! 40 hours 1/2 mostly NLHE and some plo/big o. The rest is $2/5NLHe 3/5 spread limit HE and 2/5 PLO/Big O
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:43 PM   #5831
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How come some people have tips in their stats and others don't? Are those dealer tips or waitress + dealer tips?

I always figured you'd track that you bought in for $200 and left with $750 regardless of whether you only won 2 big pots and tipped twice for $5 total or if you won 20 smaller pots and tipped $25 total.

Unless you're trying to track and see if you're overtipping or something I guess. But that's a discussion for the tipping containment thread - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...hread-1045503/
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Old 11-03-2013, 03:54 PM   #5832
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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That is a truly sick month at 1/2. How many hours?
I don't keep track of hours but probably 150-180
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:42 PM   #5833
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How come some people have tips in their stats and others don't? Are those dealer tips or waitress + dealer tips?
Dealer tips only.
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:51 PM   #5834
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Poker Journal no longer wants to boot up on iOS7.

Anyway, here's October. Mostly 2/5 with some 1/2. Pressed on last day trying make it a $20k month and set a personal record for 2/5 (it was a nice run).

I'll work on getting final stats.

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Old 11-03-2013, 05:05 PM   #5835
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Nice one! How many hours was that?
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:12 PM   #5836
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Can't get to my data ATM, but it is somewhere around 120 hrs.

Hourly was at $155 entering Thursday, down to $133 by the end of the day. Whoops.

November starting off rather crappy. Guess I can't complain tho.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:03 AM   #5837
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I don't keep track of hours but probably 150-180
This doesn't make any sense to me for someone who actually tracks results
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:23 AM   #5838
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This doesn't make any sense to me for someone who actually tracks results
Why? I'm not chasing a number.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:29 AM   #5839
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Why? I'm not chasing a number.
I think most people write/record:

Time started
Time finished
Cash in
Cash out
Amount of Rebuys


I'd check to see what the IRS requires of your records if they ever audit you. I'm sure with your run-good/play-good you'll be declaring a large chunk of winnings that might raise some eyebrows.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:35 AM   #5840
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Why? I'm not chasing a number.
Why would you keep an immaculate and yet incomplete record?
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:46 AM   #5841
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Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
I think most people write/record:

Time started
Time finished
Cash in
Cash out
Amount of Rebuys


I'd check to see what the IRS requires of your records if they ever audit you. I'm sure with your run-good/play-good you'll be declaring a large chunk of winnings that might raise some eyebrows.
I pay my taxes. Winnings get reported as gambling income. Don't know what hours played has to do with that.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:52 AM   #5842
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I pay my taxes. Winnings get reported as gambling income. Don't know what hours played has to do with that.
They can request to see records of your gambling wins/loses.
There is some debate as to what exactly constitutes sufficient records.
I've heard that they need to be hand written, include every session, and include the parties involved in the bets. I'd want to make sure that they didn't want to see session hours before I stopped recording them.
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Old 11-04-2013, 03:42 AM   #5843
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They can request to see records of your gambling wins/loses.
There is some debate as to what exactly constitutes sufficient records.
I've heard that they need to be hand written, include every session, and include the parties involved in the bets. I'd want to make sure that they didn't want to see session hours before I stopped recording them.
I have a "real job" and don't declare as a professional gambler and take no deductions relating to it, so I doubt it. Not going to derail into a tax thread though. I'm sure the people asking about hours have great concern for my standing with the IRS. In any case, hourly doesn't matter to me. All that matters is what goes in the bank at the end of the day.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:16 AM   #5844
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hi! This has been undoubtedly answered here earlier but I thought I would ask!

For the most successful live players who kill the game/walk the tight rope successfully...

What is their win rate for 2/5?

And also because being I am in Colorado where the game is 2/5 100 (100 max raise) what would be the absolute best win rate someone could get there (I presume it be lower)?

Then for both what would you say is the lower "target" win rate that successful ABC TAG players can expect?
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:30 AM   #5845
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
Can't get to my data ATM, but it is somewhere around 120 hrs.

Hourly was at $155 entering Thursday, down to $133 by the end of the day. Whoops.

November starting off rather crappy. Guess I can't complain tho.
Don't make me drive over there....
Crushing it still, nice work. Or fish on a heater?
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:38 AM   #5846
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lol the IRS isn't going to ask how many hours you've played. You think BJ players keep track of their hours? How about slot-machine players?
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:40 AM   #5847
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Not going to derail into a tax thread though.
where? I have lots of tax related questions. where do i ask this?
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:43 AM   #5848
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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where? I have lots of tax related questions. where do i ask this?
I think here is fine. Ima CPA ill respond
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:50 AM   #5849
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where? I have lots of tax related questions. where do i ask this?
Our Poker Legislation forum has a lot of tax items and search is your friend.

Linky: Poker Legislation
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:25 AM   #5850
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I have a "real job" and don't declare as a professional gambler and take no deductions relating to it, so I doubt it. Not going to derail into a tax thread though. I'm sure the people asking about hours have great concern for my standing with the IRS. In any case, hourly doesn't matter to me. All that matters is what goes in the bank at the end of the day.
I am not a CPA. I don't have any extensive knowledge of tax regulations. But I think that you are mistaken in stating "I don't take any deductions." Unless you are reporting all your winning sessions without reducing them by your losing sessions, you would be taking deductions for your losing sessions by offsetting the income from your winning sessions.

Like people have said those losses need to be substantiated to some degree in order to be available to offset your declared wins. Obviously, none of this ends up mattering 99% of the time when you don't get audited and asked to itemize records of what I assume you are declaring as a lump sum of gambling income. From what I understand if you get audited you would have to say this $50k in gambling income is from these events: 1) a 60k win and 2) a 10k loss. The 10k loss would be a deduction against the earlier gain event. Which without substantiation would be disallowed.

I think he's suggesting not necessarily that the number of hours played is important. Just that, for recording purposes, the time you played the session might be important for some kind of verification purposes. I have absolutely no idea what the IRS requires to substantiate losses, so I'm not sure how true that is. It seems unrealistic given the 0% chance that they would use that information to attempt to verify your losses.

Again, I am not an expert on this subject. I have no kind of professional license to give advice. I'm not even suggesting you follow my advice. Just that if you have substantial enough gambling income to protect, there is sufficient complexity to the tax code that it might be worth talking to some kind of expert about potential tax liability and what you can do to minimize exposure.
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