Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash Discussion of no-limit hold’em live cash games of all stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2013, 01:26 PM   #5326
qicwik
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 14
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Small pairs short stacked are not really profitable unless the game is super passive and you know there won't be any raises behind. Even then maybe not. But AK is really strong and that should be raised imo. AK AQ will be your balance hands for your big pairs. Play very tight from early position short stacked.
qicwik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:09 PM   #5327
PairPressure
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 536
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by qicwik View Post
Small pairs short stacked are not really profitable unless the game is super passive and you know there won't be any raises behind. Even then maybe not. But AK is really strong and that should be raised imo. AK AQ will be your balance hands for your big pairs. Play very tight from early position short stacked.
Yes no limping if you're gonna enter the pot then bet/raise or push. No limping for set mining etc.
PairPressure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 02:45 PM   #5328
derada4
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,544
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by qicwik View Post
Small pairs short stacked are not really profitable unless the game is super passive and you know there won't be any raises behind. Even then maybe not. But AK is really strong and that should be raised imo. AK AQ will be your balance hands for your big pairs. Play very tight from early position short stacked.
Don't worry about balance at 1/2
derada4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 05:15 PM   #5329
answer20
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
answer20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Corner of Walk/Don't Walk
Posts: 8,559
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

I started out short stacking at 120 and have done quite well growing and improving my ability to start deeper. You have to get a really good read on the opponents/table you are playing against. I did a lot of limp calling with pocket pairs/AK/AQ/suited connectors. I agree with the previous post that unless you are going to become a regular player that you shouldn't be worried about balance.

When you get AA-JJ, even 99-TT maybe, then you can go to work depending on where you are in table position. If you decide to open-raise, dont do it unless you are committed to the hand all the way. The key to short stack play is timing and keeping your image in tact. Dont make big moves without the (near) nuts 98% of the time.

Your biggest friend will be the c/r or 3-bet on the Turn. With only one card to come you can price out quite a few opponents by bloating the pot and holding a solid image.

This will only work at a passive table. The more aggressive the table the LESS hands you want to play in as a short stack ... and play them in late possition so you can react/get out if you need to without putting in money you cant chase.

If you open, then open strong ... $16 to $20 ... to try and get HU. If you can use this tight image you should be able to double your stack only playing 1 hand or less per orbit in 2.5 hours or so. There is nothing wrong with picking up $12 or so of dead money when everyone folds to your PF raise from the HJ after 4 limps.

Someone will test you ... and hopefully the Flop goes your way. You are holding premium cards and your opponent will only hit the board less than 30% of the time. Dont be afraid to c-bet even if you dont hiit the board as your holdings are probably still good. GL
answer20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 05:49 PM   #5330
KrakenUO
grinder
 
KrakenUO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 465
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

if you have 50 bbs your playing AK more agressively than if you had 200 bb's imo, your play tp tk type hands more agressive, your playing small pocket pairs less agressive pre, suited connectors you really should not even be playing for 50 bbs unless its like 5 limpers
KrakenUO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 06:31 PM   #5331
Zidane Valor
adept
 
Zidane Valor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 1,000,000 VPPs to Supernova Elite
Posts: 800
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrakenUO View Post
if you have 50 bbs your playing AK more agressively than if you had 200 bb's imo, your play tp tk type hands more agressive, your playing small pocket pairs less agressive pre, suited connectors you really should not even be playing for 50 bbs unless its like 5 limpers
I agree with this.

When you're shortstacking on purpose, you should be pushing TPTK hands harder than if you were 100-200 BB deep.

Think of it this way: Most pre-flop raises are to about 5 BB ($10). Assuming one caller, the pot is $20ish. Hit your hand on the flop, and bet the pot (10 BB). If your opponent calls, the pot will be $60 and you'll have $70 left. On a "safe" board, bet $30 on the turn and bet $40 on the river.

In a looser game, say someone raises to $10 and you get a couple of callers, you should probably reraise to $35 pre-flop and then bet all-in for $65 on any "good" flops.

Playing tight shortstacked poker to "avoid variance" at $1/$2 is a terrible idea. Not only will you not make good decisions, but you will be leaving too much money on the table. If you're playing shortstacked because your bankroll is light, perhaps it's a good idea to just step away for 3-4 months and rebuild your role at your day job.
Zidane Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 07:01 PM   #5332
DeepStack bMAC
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 475
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Short stacked cash game play is very similar to late stage tourney play. You are focused on PF action and shoving flops you hit.

If you have 50bb's then you are looking at raising to like $20 pre in 1/2 (which will def get callers so maybe even more) ten trying to get it in when you hit.
DeepStack bMAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 07:05 PM   #5333
PairPressure
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 536
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Also you need to be folding anything that isn't top 10% starting hands. Raise or fold, no calling or limping.
PairPressure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2013, 11:27 PM   #5334
ThaNEWPr0fess0r
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,831
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
Your biggest friend will be the c/r or 3-bet on the Turn. With only one card to come you can price out quite a few opponents by bloating the pot and holding a solid image.
How exactly do you plan to 3bet the turn with a 50 BB stack?

As for never limping in... Definitely not from EP, but if the table conditions are right, I could get behind limping small to medium PP's from LP, possibly some other hands like medium-large SC's that you could pay $2 to see a flop with.
ThaNEWPr0fess0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2013, 12:33 AM   #5335
Larry Lido
grinder
 
Larry Lido's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 673
Grunch,
Playing short increases variance because you don't have enough money behind to make a great fold when you know you're beat. But short stacking is a great way to begin learning how to play poker.
The problem with 50bb is that if you raise PF and fire a C bet you're pretty much committed. If I was you I'd just work hard and save up some monies while taking time off from poker. Use these weeks or months to study the game. Then come back strong with 10-20 100BB buy ins to mess around with. But you won't do that cause its too much work. So just take your 50 BBs to late night games that are really aggressive PF. Just limp raise AI anything better than 99+. Feel free to open shove any of these hands too. You're be able to see some flops to set mine if you play daytime against guys in battleship hats. Oh yeah, jam or L/R AK and AQ too. Good luck once you double up.
Larry Lido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 07:57 AM   #5336
Gambel
centurion
 
Gambel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 196
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Build your bankroll off the tables, then buy-in for 100BB+
Gambel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 10:36 AM   #5337
FatherKnowsBest
banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 273
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Just don't do it.

You can easily spend 5 years trying to turn a few bucks into a bankroll and never do it; if you do succeed the process of it will likely ruin your game forever.

Make no concessions. Its better to hitchhike a thousand miles and ship your money first hand booming than to shrinkwrap your own balls trying to nurse the illusion of risk free gamble.

Poker is a five letter word. R.A.I.S.E.
FatherKnowsBest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 11:02 AM   #5338
dgiharris
All Hail His Modness
 
dgiharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 12,294
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

The irony is, people think that short stacking reduces variance when nothing can be further from the truth.

Short stacking INCREASES your variance and it also DECREASES the probability of you having a profitable session.

Here is a chart I developed a while ago regarding short stacking



as you can see, short stacking severely limits your "ability" to play.

It is counter intuitive but when you short stack, certain plays actually become not profitable. I did some modeling on set mining to show exactly what i'm talking about.

Here is a common situation (V1 raises to $14, V2 calls, Hero???) that occurs at 1/2nl just to SHOW how short stacking hurts your game. First lets take a look at being 100bb deep



now lets compare it to being 50bb deep



So what this means is that when you are short stack, you have to FOLD situations that could be very profitable simply because now as a short stack the situations is mathematically not profitable...


NOTE: The reason why 3-betting top ten hands is NO as a short stack is because raising ranges are typically JJ+, AK in LLSNL. Obviously, if you read that a particular aggro is raising wide then you can 3-bet a top ten hand against them.

NOTE 2: second graph says 3bb in the notes but should be 7bb

Last edited by dgiharris; 07-21-2013 at 11:10 AM.
dgiharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 11:37 AM   #5339
Zidane Valor
adept
 
Zidane Valor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 1,000,000 VPPs to Supernova Elite
Posts: 800
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

That's a great chart.

I don't know if you have data on it, but if you do, does 150BB ($300 buy-in at $1/$2) skew closer to 100BB or 250BB?
Zidane Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 11:41 AM   #5340
dgiharris
All Hail His Modness
 
dgiharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 12,294
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zidane Valor View Post
That's a great chart.

I don't know if you have data on it, but if you do, does 150BB ($300 buy-in at $1/$2) skew closer to 100BB or 250BB?
I would treat 150bb as 100bb

200bb+ you can treat as "deep stack"

but 150bb should conceptually be thought of as "normal" stacked imo. Obviously your implied odds get a little better, but not to the point imo where we can play substantially different.

In fact, that is what gets players in trouble all the time. They do a double up and just can't wait to start sploshing around
dgiharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 12:14 PM   #5341
Lionhat
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 235
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Amazing. That makes a lot of sense. I've noted that I've had to fold a lot of good opportunities given the implied odds because lack of flexibility given my stack size, I think saving up so I can max buy in and studying in the meanwhile makes most sense. Thanks
Lionhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 05:45 PM   #5342
halpgr
adept
 
halpgr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Posts: 789
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

I don't consider 50bb short stacking
halpgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2013, 06:02 PM   #5343
KrakenUO
grinder
 
KrakenUO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 465
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by halpgr View Post
I don't consider 50bb short stacking
50bb is short stack in cash game, I would consider anything under 75 bb short stacking. If we have an edge on the table and we are a good player, the most profitable hands for us are ones we can make decisions on all the streets, the more decisions in a hand, the more skill comes into play, the more money you have, the more profitable it will be if your more skilled than your opponents
KrakenUO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 01:43 AM   #5344
dgiharris
All Hail His Modness
 
dgiharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 12,294
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by halpgr View Post
I don't consider 50bb short stacking
If someone raises just 4bb, you don't have the proper odds to even setmine since the minimum "standard" for set mining is 15:1 odds..

Then there is the matter of virtually ANY raise and call vs 2 villain pot commits you.

V1 makes it 4bb, V2 calls, you call with just 50bb

Flop(12bb) X Y Z
V1 bets 8bb, V2 calls, Hero????

If you call this bet, you are basically left with a PSB on turn and thus are pot committed if you have ANY semi-decent equity. But at the same time, with only 46bb behind you have virtually no fold equity if you shove turn so now you are almost forced to shove flop since this is the only spot you do have fold equity...

So basically, simply calling a standard 4bb raise vs 2 villains puts you in a position where you almost have to shove for stacks based on a standard c-bet...

And all of the above is because you are at 50bb and as such are short stacked.

If you think 50bb isn't short stacked and you play the same at 50bb as you do at 100bb then you have some serious leaks in your game. The two don't play the same, not even close. 50bb may be at the "bigger" end of short stacked, but it is short stacked nonetheless...
dgiharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 01:45 AM   #5345
dgiharris
All Hail His Modness
 
dgiharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: CA and Vegas
Posts: 12,294
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by halpgr View Post
I don't consider 50bb short stacking
Could you enlighten us to why you don't consider 50bb short stacking?
dgiharris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 03:21 AM   #5346
eldiesel
Pooh-Bah
 
eldiesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,585
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Buy in for the max. If you get below that max., top off.
eldiesel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 09:23 AM   #5347
halpgr
adept
 
halpgr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Posts: 789
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
Could you enlighten us to why you don't consider 50bb short stacking?
I'm thinking 20bb is short stacking. Apparently OPs card room does not allow this and 50bb is the min buyin.

I consider 60bb "deep" in the sense that the full range of preflop and postflop plays are available I would use the same strategies as with a 100bb stack. So I guess 50bb is then technically short by my standards (contradicting what I posted earlier) but not by much. Though I'd say OP should when buying in at 50bb probably just use deep stack strategy as it seems simpler to keep track of unless his stack drops below idk, say 40bb.
halpgr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #5348
Zidane Valor
adept
 
Zidane Valor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 1,000,000 VPPs to Supernova Elite
Posts: 800
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

20BB isn't short-stacking. That's just stupid in a cash game.
Zidane Valor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 12:49 PM   #5349
BackDownSouth
banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: FLA
Posts: 110
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Buy in short, play your hands HARD!!!!!!

Once you make money, dont wait around for everyone to get reads on you and what you might or might not do.

Buy in $60 turn it into $100 get up, Rebuy in at another table and now you have $20 invested and you can really start splashing it up with the LAGS

I just know the bigger my stack gets, the less desire I have to enter any pots,

I DONT RISK IT OR KICK MYSELF IN THE ASS WHEN I DO
BackDownSouth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2013, 01:33 PM   #5350
Zidane Valor
adept
 
Zidane Valor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 1,000,000 VPPs to Supernova Elite
Posts: 800
Re: Short stack bankroll building question $1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackDownSouth View Post
Buy in short, play your hands HARD!!!!!!

Once you make money, dont wait around for everyone to get reads on you and what you might or might not do.

Buy in $60 turn it into $100 get up, Rebuy in at another table and now you have $20 invested and you can really start splashing it up with the LAGS

I just know the bigger my stack gets, the less desire I have to enter any pots,

I DONT RISK IT OR KICK MYSELF IN THE ASS WHEN I DO
You do realize most poker players HATE these types of people, right? You're essentially going south, except you're moving to a different table (presumably online) so you think it's okay.

That makes the game infinitely worse. If everyone took their starting stack off the table and just played with the "profit", that would kill the game since money keeps coming off the table.

If you're any kind of decent player, you shouldn't be taking money off the table during the game. You should be hoping your opponents put MORE money on the table. If you go up from $60 to $100, then double up, you get $100 more instead of $60 more.
Zidane Valor is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive