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Old 05-23-2013, 12:48 PM   #5026
Avaritia
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Don't want to derail this thread, but yea.

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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
I think I disagree with the rationale behind each and every one if those points above.
Lol, most do.

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I like a table with a lot of chips on the table because I have a huge edge in DS play. And, umm, they have a lot of chips and chips are good. More chips are more good.
I said "besides the obvious math based reasons to sit at a deep table." Thought that disclaimer covered my point but I guess it didn't.

But yes, our edge is amplified the deeper the stacks. It just so happens that deep stacked tables (deep stacked beyond a max buy in factor I mean) are typically actiony tables.

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Don't assume a straddle is a fish or even that a straddle at the right table is -EV. Many times there are other dynamics at play.
It has nothing to do with the skill level of the straddler (though the assumption they are a poor/gambly player is a safe one), it has to do with the fact that you are effectively putting in a blind min raise out of position. Straddling is aids. There are no dynamics that call for it other than a mandatory table straddle.

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Can loosen up a tight table or help meta game on a loose table. Straddle a few times and u can not it up and some players (like Avarita, for example) will be quick to label you as more of an action player than perhaps you really are.
Lol. I suggest you give FlatTireSuited's post on live poker play a read. There is no need to build an image in llsnl...unless your game is just horrid. Villains only care how pretty their two cards are, and if they're in for $5 they're in for $40.

I didn't play a pot for an hour the other day. Raised to $35 UTG and we went 5 ways to the flop. People don't pay attention to image, again, they only care about the two cards in front of them.

Finally, if you still care about building an image, straddling is still aids. I'll cold 4! in the right dynamic (a wide 3 bettor taking advantage of a situation) with an ace blocker. So like A4s. Show the 4 and your image is destroyed. Also you win money. As opposed to blindly donating to a pot. Actually I still usually don't show in these situations, bc image doesn't matter. The reason why I made the play was bc of the opportunity presented, not to show everyone how gambly I am.

As for stereotypes/assumptions, I immediately build information when I sit down. So it's not like I'm thinking "he's Asian he doesn't have it", that's stupid. But making assumptions with limited information and building/adjusting from there is how you crush this game.

If you're not requesting tables with drunks/Asians/gangsters (preferably drunk Asian gangsters), you're doing it wrong imo.

Last edited by Avaritia; 05-23-2013 at 12:55 PM. Reason: tl;dr
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:03 PM   #5027
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Straddling can cause (read: guilt) other players into straddling. Additionally, straddling can be intrinsically in super deep games where there is ONE spot in the game and he has position on you. In those games with very aggro regs, players will squeeze very wide in position and also flat very wide, meaning that common raises can be huge (I've talked about 10bbs raises with 50bbs 3bets, and in a game where the pots are so much bigger than the blind and straddle, having last action is actually worth more than the 2 bbs you "throw away". When 10xing gets 4 callers (and squeezers), you become tempted to 20x, but that is too big without knowing how many players have playable hands, and yes, you do glean a lot of information because due to existence of whale all these players including you are forced to play somewhat faceup. Open limping is also a valid strat in those games, but because sometimes the pots actually become limped and you have no option, that option can be worth it.

Also in many games button straddling is +EV, especially if they do not tighten enough and flat your straddle too much.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:53 PM   #5028
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

yep, mississippi straddle is the nuts
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:17 PM   #5029
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Sol you are talking about a WAY different game dynamic that I can't even comment on for lack of experience.

And yes I wasn't referring to btn straddle, that is entirely different. Again I am not familiar with it as none of my rooms allow the btn straddle.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:20 PM   #5030
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

My normal game has a button straddle, with UTG re-straddle option. Yes, it is used more than 50% of hands. Yes, I love this game.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:57 AM   #5031
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Hi all!
In my area (germany) run only 2/2, 2/4 And 5/5 Games. What do you think a Good Player can average per Hour at the 5/5 tables? Can he Play it for a living? And what about bankroll Management? Is 25k ok?
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:04 AM   #5032
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

what is the rake
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:57 AM   #5033
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I keep all my records by hand so I don't have a fancy PJ chart or sweet graph like Sol (nice job man!) but here are my 2/5 numbers since moving up in September. I tally up my session and calculate this stuff every two months or so and I'm very happy with my 2013 results so far although I should be putting in more hours.

Overall, 11.5bb/hr over 518 hrs.
In 2013 15.9bb/hr over 286 hrs.

This is in a 200-500 game with a $6 rake +$1 BBJ.

Unfortunately the 5/10 game died as I was taking shots so haven't been able to get in many hours in that game. Looking forward to deeper 2/5 and 5/10 games in Vegas this summer.
that is awesome man!! im making 70/hr at 2/5, and im at about 700 hours now so im starting to think it might be sustainable. a few months and I should know for sure, but the play at my room is so bad I think that could be close to actual winrate. anything over 50 id be thrilled though
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:38 AM   #5034
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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that is awesome man!! im making 70/hr at 2/5, and im at about 700 hours now so im starting to think it might be sustainable. a few months and I should know for sure, but the play at my room is so bad I think that could be close to actual winrate. anything over 50 id be thrilled though
What room do you play in? Are you playing tighter/looser? Are you playing aggressive/passive? That is impressive. Keep up the good work.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:12 PM   #5035
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what is the rake
Rake is 10% cap to 10€
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:15 PM   #5036
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Rake is 10% cap to 10€
Games are Deep, Most Players Seat with 700-1500€
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #5037
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

That rake is sh*t...you're paying max rake for every 20bb pot @ 5/5. Which is every hand at a deep table. With up to 90 going south every orbit (excluding tip), you need a big edge, imo.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:27 PM   #5038
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That rake is sh*t...you're paying max rake for every 20bb pot @ 5/5. Which is every hand at a deep table. With up to 90 going south every orbit (excluding tip), you need a big edge, imo.
Sick. I Take only 20 min to Get to the casino!
There is another Big card room that have rake 5%, but i have to Drive 80 km with the Car! Also 160 km/Day
Do you think i can earn more Money there?
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #5039
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Man, that sucks.

It all depends on what your think your edge is. Do you have any amount of time playing either room? If the closer room is soft enough that you're earning well even with the sky rake, a lower WR is justified by saving the commute $$ and time.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:40 PM   #5040
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Man, that sucks.

It all depends on what your think your edge is. Do you have any amount of time playing either room? If the closer room is soft enough that you're earning well even with the sky rake, a lower WR is justified by saving the commute $$ and time.
I dont have any samplesize at the 5/5 Because i Play 2/4 at the closer room And im Winning 22€/h over 570 h. (Games are relative soft and deep) The Problem is that at the 5/5 Seat only Regs (anytime i Get to the casino there are always the Same People there). I have Looked for the rake at the bigger Card room, its Not 5%, but:

Pot <75 = 0
pot > 75 < 250 = 5
Pot > 250 < 500 = 10

From 250 you Pay 5&euro; more rake every 250 &euro; in pot
Cap 30&euro;

Not that Bad, And i think i Get there more Action Because there are always 2-3 Games going
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:01 PM   #5041
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For pots that are < 75 there isn't rake
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Old 05-24-2013, 04:56 PM   #5042
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Man, if you're winning 22bb/h over that sample, you're crushing. I wouldn't change up anything. That room must be crazy soft.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:02 PM   #5043
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There is a fairly new 3/5 NLH game with a buy in of $200-500 at a local casino. Instead of playing the 2/3 NLH with a buy in of $300 I will be playing the 3/5 with buying in at ~$250.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:11 PM   #5044
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Should be a much more profitable game.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:15 PM   #5045
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^Rake is the same, perks are the same, and players are slightly better if any. Obviously I will be playing a bit different but really looking forward to this game.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:19 PM   #5046
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I play both 2/5 100 - 300 BI and 3/5 200 - 500 BI game, and the latter plays much bigger and more profitable.

However, a lot of players that play the 2/5 tells me that 3/5 game is tougher, and yet I feel it's the other way around. The structure of 2/5 BI just makes the game insanely high variance - something a lot of average players don't understand.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:27 PM   #5047
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Man, if you're winning 22bb/h over that sample, you're crushing. I wouldn't change up anything. That room must be crazy soft.
Im Winning 22 EURO/ Hour (5,5bb/h) not 22bb lol
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:33 PM   #5048
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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that is awesome man!! im making 70/hr at 2/5, and im at about 700 hours now so im starting to think it might be sustainable. a few months and I should know for sure, but the play at my room is so bad I think that could be close to actual winrate. anything over 50 id be thrilled though
I think it is certainly sustainable, especially in a 1k max game, however you have to know your player pool well. You don't have to play LAG, but you have to constantly be looking for spots to pick up dead money. But this shouldn't be confused with trying to make people fold big hands because 2/5 players aren't in the business of making hero folds. Hell even I consider myself a bit of a station lol.

In a 500 max game I don't know if it's sustainable. Maybe for the best couple of players in the game but usually somebody with the skill set to crush 2/5 like that will move up before they get to a significant sample size.
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #5049
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I think it is certainly sustainable, especially in a 1k max game, however you have to know your player pool well. You don't have to play LAG, but you have to constantly be looking for spots to pick up dead money. But this shouldn't be confused with trying to make people fold big hands because 2/5 players aren't in the business of making hero folds. Hell even I consider myself a bit of a station lol.

In a 500 max game I don't know if it's sustainable. Maybe for the best couple of players in the game but usually somebody with the skill set to crush 2/5 like that will move up before they get to a significant sample size.
its a 500 max buy in. I play 5/10 when it runs, and I feel I could play much higher. im considered one of the best 2/5 players in the room, and over the last 4 months no one has results close to mine. I do not make many squeeze plays or crazy bluffs. no one folds at my room, so value betting like crazy and not being afraid to overbet huge against certain opponents is where all the profit comes from. like I said, id be thrilled with 50 an hour or higher, but with the bad play I feel 70ish is possible. ill know in a few months
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:18 PM   #5050
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Im Winning 22 EURO/ Hour (5,5bb/h) not 22bb lol
Ah ok then. Which game would you consider your main stake? That WR is pretty decent for 1/2, but pretty thin for 5/5.
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