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Old 02-11-2013, 05:52 AM   #3951
Duke0424
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loto_Negro_gv4l View Post
When can you take out some profit from bankroll to pay expenses, etc.?
this is way too dependent on your personal situation to have universal advice. if you want some help determining that, tell us your situation like if you have a job, how seriously you play, your goals, etc etc

i guess if youre asking the question in the first place, my answer would be any time you feel like it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:41 AM   #3952
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

How to get rid of tilt(and boost your winrate)

Dont be results oriented
Play rolled
Put in tons of volume so that you lose pots more often and therefore become more accustomed to it
When all in simply put your chips in the middle, flip your cards and turn around (assuming all in before river). This way you have released yourself from the chips, you don't have to ride the emotional all in roller coaster, and since our hand is face up you don't have to worry about mucking the winner. (Vs regs I don't like to flip unless I have to show first, I wanna see their hand"
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:03 AM   #3953
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I don't have anything close to 4k to play with. So I'm going to get my practice in online and only play the absolute fishiest live games I know of until I can build a roll (if I'm even good enough).

I just read that 10NL online plays like 1/2 live, but I have to disagree with this. It may be that decent players for both games are about the same skill level, but there is one big difference: bad players at 10NL are much more willing and likely to shove their stacks in. Because for fish, the absolute value of the money DOES affect their strategy. At live 1/2, I would say that most of the fish make smaller mistakes, but perhaps more often.

Or maybe the same mistakes are made everywhere, and I just don't see it the same way because --I-- let the absolute value affect me live. I want to play with a roll sometime so that I can view things objectively, because I think being scared money is the number one thing keeping me from thinking straight and winning.

[edit] Another huge difference between online and live, regardless of the online stakes, is that nowhere online do I see raises of 5x-8x the BB being standard. it's 3x everywhere, even at 5NL

Last edited by corlath; 02-11-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:42 AM   #3954
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Jibber View Post
everyone tilts.
Eh, everyone tilts in different ways though.
For example; the last time I lost like 800 in a night, it wasn't because I was "tilting" I just ran like trash. I did tilt after the session though and went and bought a $700 tv
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:45 AM   #3955
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by schlik20 View Post
I dont agree with this at all. You must have a stop loss because even if your still +ev you are still influenced by way to many previous decisions/outcomes that may inhibit your future play. I cant fathom losing 10bi and just shake it off... And I cant see how any "pro" could be ok with this. Im speaking NLH ofc.

my stop loss is 3 buyins
I don't think having a "losing image" makes it -EV just maybe less +EV but if you are in a great game and it is showdown poker you aren't bluffing too much anyway so it is pointless imo
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:52 AM   #3956
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by LolPony View Post
Eh, everyone tilts in different ways though.
For example; the last time I lost like 800 in a night, it wasn't because I was "tilting" I just ran like trash. I did tilt after the session though and went and bought a $700 tv
Ha, I love this. "**** it, if I'm going to lose that much I might as well GET something for it."
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:26 PM   #3957
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

How often would a top winning 2/5 500 max reg bust threw a 5k starting roll if this money was strictly for the game and no winnings were taken out of the roll?
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:26 PM   #3958
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I agree that everyone started off tilting. Some people have learned to deal with it through various methods. IME, most poker players eventually see the swings as inevitable and this helps them not tilt.

My personal method of tilt avoidance is:
1. Recognize that I am tilting and playing suboptimally because of it
2. Go for a short walk through the casino to calm down, and grab pop from the free dispenser.
3. Decide to play a tighter range preflop because I know I am still playing suboptimally, and I have a losing image
4. If I still feel like I am playing really bad, I will cash out my chips and leave regardless of how stuck I am or how good the tables are
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:17 PM   #3959
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Bankroll usage question...

I am a 21 yr old college student, Bankroll~$4000. I use that $ for drinking/food money too along with poker. BR is NOT used for monthly living expenses(rent, utilities, etc.)

I want to build my BR steadily to move up stakes, but for now am playing 1/2 regularly, along with tourneys usually in the $30-$50 range at local cardroom (~40-70 entrants regularly). Occasionally I take a shot at $100-$300 tourneys at casinos in the region.

I am a better tourney player than cash. I have logged endless amounts of SNG's online before Black Friday and am very good at shoving ranges. Since most of the tourneys boil down to ss'ed play in the end (avg stack usually ~10-15 bbs), and the fact that the usual players in these tourneys are absolutely horrendous at short-stacked play, I feel i have a large edge in these tourneys.

Alternatively, I am confident that I can just play TAG poker in the 1/2 games and make a decent profit.

With only a 20 buyin bankroll for 1/2, however, i feel a bit more comfortable playing the tourneys.

Any thoughts on how often these tourneys should be mixed in to my general plan of action? (I have time to play about 2 nights a week btw, with school and all)
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:29 PM   #3960
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You shouldn't not play because you only have 4k, that's silly.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:38 PM   #3961
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You do realize that the variance of donkaments is much higher than live games?

I wonder if anyone has actually done a tally of whether it's even possible to turn a profit in daily donkament over an extended period.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:42 PM   #3962
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

the rake makes even donkaments tough to beat
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:49 PM   #3963
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by STRAP36 View Post
How often would a top winning 2/5 500 max reg bust threw a 5k starting roll if this money was strictly for the game and no winnings were taken out of the roll?
risk of ruin is probably like 10%
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:03 PM   #3964
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by 11t View Post
risk of ruin is probably like 10%
Couldn't find any ROR or var simulators online for cash games... 10% sound about right? As long as I never take any money out of the roll, 90% of the time 5k is all I would have to invest to get going then?
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:04 PM   #3965
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

yea unless you hit a horrible downswing you should be fine with 10 BI

just dont play scared

SCARED MONEY DONT MAKE MONEY
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:47 PM   #3966
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Scared money? He said he's a top 2/5 winning reg....

WTF at even asking a question like that if the above is true.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:49 PM   #3967
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

yea i was just saying it to say it because i like that saying

idk who he is
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:19 PM   #3968
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Stop losses are fine if you don't have much emotional control. Everyone tilts when losing, and when winning, and when they've been breaking even for a long time. Tilt can be very slight by definition. But when you are losing, while you may still be making solid pf and cbet decisions and your technical game will be solid, you're still probably missing a lot of information you would be getting if your mind were clear.

However, stop losses are not necessary for everyone. Whether or not to do this is very personal, and it's crazy to give advice on the matter. If you are rolled and reasonable it's very possible you will not need to stop loss unless you go lose whatever you brought.

For me, stop losses don't work because if I am getting killed taking time off doesn't help. First, I stop playing entirely. I have little desire to play poker when losing and have to force myself to be disciplined. If I leave when down a certain amount, those hours never return. Second, while I feel fuzzy-headed when getting crushed, that doesn't go away because it's a new day. Mired in a losing streak, I am expecting to get my brains bashed in whenever I sit down to play again. Quite irrational. Obviously some things to work on, but a deep breath and a mental reminder about how without variance there would be no such thing as making money playing poker usually help a lot.

If you haven't read it, get Jared Tendler's book.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:39 PM   #3969
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm in my mid 20's with a wife and 2 kids. I was working in the banking industry for 2 years before I resigned a couple months ago. My wife wanted me to spend more time with the family so she started working part-time as a dental hygienist and makes between 33-40/hr depending on the clinic. I've saved up about 5k for my poker bankroll strictly for 1/2 NL (2/5 NL is too deepstacked, 200 BBs minimum so its too much for me as much as I would love to play that game). I'm trying to build a bankroll for 2/5 NL.

- Is it okay to buy in for $500 in the 2/5 game and just try to double through donks? If not, how much should I build my bankroll to?

- If I need around $1000 for expenses at the end of each month, can I take it off my profits from poker? What's the best way to pay for my monthly expenses.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I've logged 700 hours this year in 115 sessions and winrate of 20.00/hr. Most of my profits were used for our family vacation (disneyland) and paying off loans while I was still working.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:44 PM   #3970
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loto_Negro_gv4l View Post
I'm in my mid 20's with a wife and 2 kids. I was working in the banking industry for 2 years before I resigned a couple months ago. My wife wanted me to spend more time with the family so she started working part-time as a dental hygienist and makes between 33-40/hr depending on the clinic. I've saved up about 5k for my poker bankroll strictly for 1/2 NL (2/5 NL is too deepstacked, 200 BBs minimum so its too much for me as much as I would love to play that game). I'm trying to build a bankroll for 2/5 NL.

- Is it okay to buy in for $500 in the 2/5 game and just try to double through donks? If not, how much should I build my bankroll to?

- If I need around $1000 for expenses at the end of each month, can I take it off my profits from poker? What's the best way to pay for my monthly expenses.

Thanks in advance.
I would put in 40 hours a week, 160 hours a month at 1/2 for three months and then honestly look at your win rate.

If you're averaging $20+ and your bankroll is more towards $10,000, move up.

If you're going to play 160 hours a month/are averaging $20 a hour, then taking 1k for expenses is fine.

You just need to start out running normal or good, starting out running bad could be devastating to your roll, especially if you start out shot taking at 2/5.

Remember, you have a wife/kids involved, you can't fail at this if this is all you have for income.

I am single and only have the responsibility to myself. I could blow my roll any time I feel like it and laugh it off/replace it with money from my savings/stocks.

I play for competitive fun though, not to support a wife/family.

P.S.- Just saw your edit.....

I still say get your roll more up towards 10k before shot taking, REMEMBER... YOU HAVE FAMILY INVOLVED IN THIS.... you can't risk a bad run with only 5k.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:46 PM   #3971
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loto_Negro_gv4l View Post
I'm in my mid 20's with a wife and 2 kids. I was working in the banking industry for 2 years before I resigned a couple months ago. My wife wanted me to spend more time with the family so she started working part-time as a dental hygienist and makes between 33-40/hr depending on the clinic. I've saved up about 5k for my poker bankroll strictly for 1/2 NL (2/5 NL is too deepstacked, 200 BBs minimum so its too much for me as much as I would love to play that game). I'm trying to build a bankroll for 2/5 NL.

- Is it okay to buy in for $500 in the 2/5 game and just try to double through donks? If not, how much should I build my bankroll to?

- If I need around $1000 for expenses at the end of each month, can I take it off my profits from poker? What's the best way to pay for my monthly expenses.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: I've logged 700 hours this year in 115 sessions and winrate of 20.00/hr. Most of my profits were used for our family vacation (disneyland) and paying off loans while I was still working.
Re question 1: Yes, but you'll be better off if you build the roll more first, probably at least to 10k.

Re question 2: Uh, pay for it out of your wife's income? Seriously your income is going to be heavily volatile, it would be for the best if your wife covered your family's monthly nut, especially if she's making $6,000+ a month pre-tax or something like you're claiming. Use the extra income for now to build your roll, then start using some as needed to up your standard of living/save for retirement/whatever floats your boat.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:50 PM   #3972
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Childress View Post
Stop losses are fine if you don't have much emotional control. Everyone tilts when losing, and when winning, and when they've been breaking even for a long time. Tilt can be very slight by definition. But when you are losing, while you may still be making solid pf and cbet decisions and your technical game will be solid, you're still probably missing a lot of information you would be getting if your mind were clear.

However, stop losses are not necessary for everyone. Whether or not to do this is very personal, and it's crazy to give advice on the matter. If you are rolled and reasonable it's very possible you will not need to stop loss unless you go lose whatever you brought.

For me, stop losses don't work because if I am getting killed taking time off doesn't help. First, I stop playing entirely. I have little desire to play poker when losing and have to force myself to be disciplined. If I leave when down a certain amount, those hours never return. Second, while I feel fuzzy-headed when getting crushed, that doesn't go away because it's a new day. Mired in a losing streak, I am expecting to get my brains bashed in whenever I sit down to play again. Quite irrational. Obviously some things to work on, but a deep breath and a mental reminder about how without variance there would be no such thing as making money playing poker usually help a lot.

If you haven't read it, get Jared Tendler's book.
When I am on a downswing, I think the opposite way...

I think...

"I am 2-3 buy ins down. I must get out of this casino. If I don't I am going to lose 1k+ or end up playing blackjack. I must go home, honestly review the session, and then sleep it off. Tomorrow when I come back to the poker table it will be the start of at least a 10 session win streak."

I need to sleep it off because I do get upset or even ashamed when I feel I knew the correct plays to be a winner, but failed to execute.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:53 PM   #3973
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Thanks for the reply lotgrinder. My wife made it clear that there's no pressure for me to make money to pay expenses but i want to help her anyway. I'm not that confident with my winrate as I haven't hit 1000 hours yet. And I know how bad losing streaks could be to a bankroll. In the 2 months I played full-time I've only logged 140 hours and play around 4-5 times a week as wife wants to see me more. How do you schedule your sessions? Long sessions or do you play more than 5 days a week?
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:55 PM   #3974
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
Re question 1: Yes, but you'll be better off if you build the roll more first, probably at least to 10k.

Re question 2: Uh, pay for it out of your wife's income? Seriously your income is going to be heavily volatile, it would be for the best if your wife covered your family's monthly nut, especially if she's making $6,000+ a month pre-tax or something like you're claiming. Use the extra income for now to build your roll, then start using some as needed to up your standard of living/save for retirement/whatever floats your boat.
Thanks for the reply. My wife only works part-time so shes not making full-time salary. She can pay the monthly expenses most of the time but there are months like christmas where our expenses are higher than usual. Those times she needs me to chip in.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:57 PM   #3975
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loto_Negro_gv4l View Post
Thanks for the reply lotgrinder. My wife made it clear that there's no pressure for me to make money to pay expenses but i want to help her anyway. I'm not that confident with my winrate as I haven't hit 1000 hours yet. And I know how bad losing streaks could be to a bankroll. In the 2 months I played full-time I've only logged 140 hours and play around 4-5 times a week as wife wants to see me more. How do you schedule your sessions? Long sessions or do you play more than 5 days a week?
If you are going to be playing for a living...

You have to put in these hours...

Thursday: 6pm-2am
Friday: Noon-4am (Just make sure to get in 8-10 hours)
Saturday Noon-4am (Just make sure to get in 8-10 hours.)
Sunday: Noon-11pm (Just make sure to get in 8-10 hours.)

Schedule cool stuff to do with your wife/family on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights.

They'll be less people to compete with at the movies, restaurants, malls, etc, etc, etc anyway.

Maybe she'll like that?

You can still sacrifice a Fri or Sat night from poker every now and then to..

On Mon,Tue, Wed you should never be in the casino earlier than 5pm or later than midnight unless you found a JUICY game.
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