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Old 02-04-2013, 07:47 PM   #3851
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Raidion View Post
I thought about that, but i don't really have that much experience playing shortstacked and the variance seems rather high as I'll end up having a PSB left on most flops unless I can 3bet/4bet shove. Does that mean I'm just stuck to playing AK,QQ+ and never seeing flops?

I feel like I can beat the game, I just don't want to set myself up for a 2BI loss at 2/5 and then a 3 BI swing at 1/2 and suddenly only have 900 bucks left. I don't really mind being a bankroll nit.
Not intended as a mean comment, but if you have to ask that question, you might want to read up on short-stack strategy. It's definitely profitable to be more aggressive than that.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:16 PM   #3852
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Not taken as a mean comment. I don't have much experience playing short. :P I buy in for full usually and usually end up with 300+ bb on the table, even if my opponents only have 50bb, they play like a full stack, so it's never an issue...
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:24 AM   #3853
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Take shots at 2/5 if you can handle losing that amount of money / thread. Bankroll rules are obsolete when someone has more money in the bank and can afford it. Also remember you have to risk it to earn it.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:07 AM   #3854
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I've played 40 hours over 6 months, so I've played ~240 hours. I do have a little online experience at around 25k hands, but not so much since I started playing live. I'm in the US so I don't have a very good site to play on and I'm not a winning player at 4NL probably because I don't care as much because the money isn't worth anything to me. I am only down around 20 BI though, so I don't get crushed, I just call down too light.
For most rec players willing to replenish, I'd say 5 2/5 buy ins is enough to take a shot. If you don't want to replenish, then you can wait for maybe $4k or you can take a really nitty shot now.

Here's how I take nitty shots on a short roll:

I have a stop loss (mine is 1 buy in). This means that as long as I am on the shot, I will drop back down if I ever lose a buy in to below what I had when I started the shot. So if I lose a buy in ( even to a bad beat) the first night, I'm done, I drop down until I make that $500 back, and I start over. If I win $300 the first night, I'm on an $800 shot.

If you keep doing this, and you have an edge at 2/5, eventually you'll run hot enough (just not running bad, really) to have won enough to make the move semi-permanent--that is, you'll be thinking of yourself as a 2/5 player who will drop down if his BR ever gets down to X.

Rec players should be VERY aggro with taking small shots repeatedy. Rec players unwilling to replenish only need to be a little nittier about taking really small shots.

Here's another shot method you can use, maybe better than the first:

Sit at 1/2 as usual, and buy in as usual. But every single time your stack hits $500, rack up, and go sit in the 2/5 game for the rest of the night. Psychologically, you're leveraging money that you haven't added to your roll yet, and it's easier to play well with your profits from that night plus a regular 1/2 buy in being your only risk.

This sort of shot is self-sustaining, you can't take worse than a $200 hit to your roll using it, and you get 2/5 table time in bite sized pieces, and only on nights on which you're all full of piss and vinegar cuz you've been crushing 1/2.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:25 AM   #3855
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Mpethy, what percentage of 1/2 sessions would you say your stack goes above 500 from 200? Just curious, as it almost never happens to me--but I'm a nit who buys in for 100 to take advantage of villains' bad preflop selection without having to make many decisions postflop.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:04 AM   #3856
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
Here's another shot method you can use, maybe better than the first:

Sit at 1/2 as usual, and buy in as usual. But every single time your stack hits $500, rack up, and go sit in the 2/5 game for the rest of the night. Psychologically, you're leveraging money that you haven't added to your roll yet, and it's easier to play well with your profits from that night plus a regular 1/2 buy in being your only risk.

This sort of shot is self-sustaining, you can't take worse than a $200 hit to your roll using it, and you get 2/5 table time in bite sized pieces, and only on nights on which you're all full of piss and vinegar cuz you've been crushing 1/2.
I am also a total BR nit, who actually has a good paying FT job, so technically I don't even have a bankroll.

But anyway, I do what mpethy describes above but when I have gone from $200 to $400 in a 1-2 session and even then only when I am feeling like I am playing my A game and the 2-5 game looks soft. I find it really does help with the added stress to know that only $200 of your stack is "your" money. (Of course, even that isn't your money - you won it from other players in earlier sessions.) And the difference between an 80BB buyin and a 100BB buyin isn't game changing.

The other thing that needs to be repeated time and again in this thread is that moving from 1-2 to 2-5 is not a leap off a cliff. It is a line that you are stepping across and can just as easily step back over. Play 2-5 when you are up for it, play 1-2 when you are not. This isn't crossing the Rubicon.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:32 AM   #3857
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Mpethy, what percentage of 1/2 sessions would you say your stack goes above 500 from 200? Just curious, as it almost never happens to me--but I'm a nit who buys in for 100 to take advantage of villains' bad preflop selection without having to make many decisions postflop.
yeah, that's your problem.

It's not very common for me to win $300 in a night, but it's not that uncommon, either. Maybe 15%? maybe 10%

Ask WJ94; his answer would be "~all."
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:25 PM   #3858
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I think mpethy is providing strong advice.

The other thing you could do is turn your 1/2 money in to $500, pocket the initial $200 buy-in, and freeroll the 2/5 for 60 bb if you're a decent short-stack player.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:59 PM   #3859
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You are not really "freerolling" in that the moment chips enter your stack, they are part of your bankroll and hence your money. I understand how this shot taking technique may help people physiologically tho.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:09 PM   #3860
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

This is all great advice. I think I might wait until I get up to around 3k and in the process sit in the 2/5 game anytime my stack goes above 400 and possibly a full shot anytime I see that the game is really soft on weekends. I just am not comfortable playing a shortstack (unless we are talking a 40bb pushbot style) and very rarely do it so would rather take a 80+bb stack to the table. Maybe presidents day weekend...

Anywho, in an unrelated note, if you play at the Horseshoe in CLE PM if you want to meet up or something.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:52 PM   #3861
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Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
yeah, that's your problem.

It's not very common for me to win $300 in a night, but it's not that uncommon, either. Maybe 15%? maybe 10%

Ask WJ94; his answer would be "~all."
Less than $300 profit is a bad night IMO...easier to win $300+ with max buying instead of short-stacking. Short-stackers pretty much never leave with multiple racks. If I leave with less than two racks I consider it an off night. Lost $450 last night, worst session in a month...that sucked pretty hard.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:55 PM   #3862
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

How could you honestly think its super easy to win $300 a session? Even in an 8 hour session you would need to win 40 an hour to win over $300 in a session.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:05 PM   #3863
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How could you honestly think its super easy to win $300 a session? Even in an 8 hour session you would need to win 40 an hour to win over $300 in a session.
Because it is pretty easy, and if not "easy", then I'd say not that difficult. Just looked at my past 69 sessions since I started tracking again and 32 of them were at least $300 profit, 25 were >$400, 19 were >$500, 14 were >$600, 11 were >$700, 9 were >$800, 5 were >$900. Only 8 of the 69 were $300+ losses. So yeah...not all that hard. Buy in max, play aggressive, profit??
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:07 PM   #3864
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You gotta aim for the sky, son. Clearly it doesn't have to even be remotely possible, you just have to believe it!

Or simply have a spreadsheet that says you do.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:10 PM   #3865
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Because it is pretty easy, and if not "easy", then I'd say not that difficult. Just looked at my past 69 sessions since I started tracking again and 32 of them were at least $300 profit, 25 were >$400, 19 were >$500, 14 were >$600, 11 were >$700, 9 were >$800, 5 were >$900. Only 8 of the 69 were $300+ losses. So yeah...not all that hard. Buy in max, play aggressive, profit??
Look, self rising D0UGHBOY, I don't have time to explain these simple stuffs to you.

Just read the enclosed spreadsheet and figure out yourself. Clearly if it's in my spreadsheet, it's true.

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Old 02-05-2013, 05:11 PM   #3866
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Raidion View Post
This is all great advice. I think I might wait until I get up to around 3k and in the process sit in the 2/5 game anytime my stack goes above 400 and possibly a full shot anytime I see that the game is really soft on weekends. I just am not comfortable playing a shortstack (unless we are talking a 40bb pushbot style) and very rarely do it so would rather take a 80+bb stack to the table. Maybe presidents day weekend...

Anywho, in an unrelated note, if you play at the Horseshoe in CLE PM if you want to meet up or something.
If you are a girl I will meet up!!! The CLE games arent really that good IMO but I think the weekends are obviously the best for 2/5. When the 5/5 games run the 2/5 is a good game.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:12 PM   #3867
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Because it is pretty easy, and if not "easy", then I'd say not that difficult. Just looked at my past 69 sessions since I started tracking again and 32 of them were at least $300 profit, 25 were >$400, 19 were >$500, 14 were >$600, 11 were >$700, 9 were >$800, 5 were >$900. Only 8 of the 69 were $300+ losses. So yeah...not all that hard. Buy in max, play aggressive, profit??
do you stick around until your even/ahead? how many times on average would you say you re-buy? it seems like once or twice a session by looking at your spreadsheet unless RR is uncapped?

what is your average session length?
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:15 PM   #3868
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Because it is pretty easy, and if not "easy", then I'd say not that difficult. Just looked at my past 69 sessions since I started tracking again and 32 of them were at least $300 profit, 25 were >$400, 19 were >$500, 14 were >$600, 11 were >$700, 9 were >$800, 5 were >$900. Only 8 of the 69 were $300+ losses. So yeah...not all that hard. Buy in max, play aggressive, profit??
must be nice to run like god
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:21 PM   #3869
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Mpethy, what percentage of 1/2 sessions would you say your stack goes above 500 from 200? Just curious, as it almost never happens to me--but I'm a nit who buys in for 100 to take advantage of villains' bad preflop selection without having to make many decisions postflop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
yeah, that's your problem.

It's not very common for me to win $300 in a night, but it's not that uncommon, either. Maybe 15%? maybe 10%

Ask WJ94; his answer would be "~all."
I just went back and clicked some buttons to take a more or less random sample, and i was at 10/58 of the sessions i checked at > $300 at 1/2. So 17%, my swag was both pleasingly and depressingly accurate.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:26 PM   #3870
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Less than $300 profit is a bad night IMO...easier to win $300+ with max buying instead of short-stacking. Short-stackers pretty much never leave with multiple racks. If I leave with less than two racks I consider it an off night. Lost $450 last night, worst session in a month...that sucked pretty hard.
This is ridiculous and not something that should be spread for others to aim for. Congrats on tracking 69 sessions and conveniently being on a heater.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:36 PM   #3871
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This is ridiculous and not something that should be spread for others to aim for. Congrats on tracking 69 sessions and conveniently being on a heater.
This.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:37 PM   #3872
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Less than $300 profit is a bad night IMO...easier to win $300+ with max buying instead of short-stacking. Short-stackers pretty much never leave with multiple racks. If I leave with less than two racks I consider it an off night. Lost $450 last night, worst session in a month...that sucked pretty hard.


WJ, you can only make it so obvious that you're trolling this thread.

You claimed, what? 8 or 9 +$900 sessions in 68 sessions? So like 12% of your sessions are good nights? 88% of your sessions are off nights? Dude, if you have an off night 88% of the time, quit poker right damn now, you SUCK.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:43 PM   #3873
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In the six months I have been keeping a log, 8 out of 34 sessions ended +$300 or more for me, which is 23.5%. I also had five other sessions where I was +300 at some point but did not finish +300, so if I had a stop-win at +300, I would have hit it 38% of the time.

My hourly over this sample is about 20% above Radion's so the very (very, very) back of the envelope answer appears to be that Radion should be able to take his mini-shots, oh, about one out of every four sessions, if he gets up the moment he hits +300.

P.S. very, very, very back of the envelope - like Laffer curve quality analysis.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:45 PM   #3874
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I post this in my PG&C thread, and I'm obviously a fish so take it with a grain of salt, but in my last 26 sessions of 2/5 from September to now I am 8/26 for -7.6k.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:53 PM   #3875
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I post this in my PG&C thread, and I'm obviously a fish so take it with a grain of salt, but in my last 26 sessions of 2/5 from September to now I am 8/26 for -7.6k.
I dunno, you post like you'd have an edge at 2/5. Don't really believe you're a fish. Pretty sure I had at least one similar run at 1/2, and my edge there was much bigger than your edge would be at 2/5.

Could be you post better than you play, which means you have a leak of not thinking clearly during a hand, maybe some other things that from your posts I don't think are really a problem for you (playing scared, passing up thin spots, etc.).

I think you should consider moving down to rebuild confidence (and roll, if it needs it), but I don't think you should be calling yourself a fish. I'd stake you in any 2/5 game in Vegas and feel good about it.
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