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Old 01-14-2013, 04:33 AM   #3551
Tom Dwans Son
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I went directly to 2/5 but I am definitely the exception where I play. Those of us who did skip 1/2 (and/or 2/5) did so because we had substantial experience as winning players online. That being said, many players, myself included, will still play 1/2 if the 5/10 and 2/5 games aren't that good (which honestly is not that often but by no means do I consider myself above playing 1/2).

My biggest concern is not the rake, which seems to be more than made up for by the extremely gawd awful play. My concerns with 1/2 are: tables are often severely short stacked, tables are sometimes extremely slow, and often times games turn into a limpfest which can really hurt the action (and also contributes to the game going slower).
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:35 AM   #3552
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Yea it does cover it. And that's my entire savings. Goal is to grind 1/2 until I have a roll for 2/5 and then take it from there.

If I lost it all, I'd have a tough time coming up with another roll.
Whoa. You need savings besides your roll. If you have 5000 to your name in total you are wicked underrolled unless you have a solid source of income.

They must have missed this.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:43 AM   #3553
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Bad idea to grind 1/2 NL when the rake is $5 + $1 BBJ.

Recommend you stop playing poker and spend your time looking for another part-time job to start building up some more savings.

When you have more income and saved up a 10k bankroll from your work, then you can start grinding 2/5 NL in your free time.

In the meantime, please do yourself a favor and quit playing 1/2 NL.
Most people who want to be pros would be best served working part time when starting out. The income sustains your roll, helps cover your monthly nut, and keeps something on your résumé for when you fail and need to go back to find a real job. Plus many will do better mentally taking this gradual approach.

Treat poker like a business. Be an entrepreneur. Many successful business people do the ground work for their own business while they are still in their old job. And they save money from their old job to cover them while they are trying to get their new business off the ground.

So many aspiring pros are unable/unwilling to take the $$$ side of poker seriously. It will not work out for most of them in any meaningful way.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:00 AM   #3554
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Whoa. You need savings besides your roll. If you have 5000 to your name in total you are wicked underrolled unless you have a solid source of income.

They must have missed this.
Oh yea, I did.

I'd suggest that if you're that underrolled, anything you play should just be considered taking a shot. Sit with $300 and another $600 in your pocket, and if you can get some run-good and win a bit, start building a roll with the winnings. If you lose $600 ... wait a month or two before taking another shot. It's entirely possible to run $300 into $2000 in a couple of sessions at a good $1/2 game, but it's also possible to lose $2000 pretty damn quickly if you run bad + tilt.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:52 AM   #3555
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LOL. This guy said his 1/2 NL game has $6 rake/hand. Do any of you understand how ridiculously high raked that is?

With that kind of rake, his 1/3 NL game is probably not beatable for anything more than $10/hour.

I would Mich rather get a part-time job than grind 1/2 NL for $10/hour.
Where I play, it's 10% rake up to $10 per hand and a $5 hr time charge. I'm still beating it 19bb hr since last jan at 1:2 and 2:3. And I'm a mile away from being a great player

Anybody who is any good can crush 1:2 for 10bb hr or more. If they can't, they should never go pro
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:50 AM   #3556
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I think the softness of my 1/2 games will make up for the 10% up to $6 rake. I've only played around 200 hours in that casino and the other 200 hours were in various AC and Delaware casinos which usually have a $5 total rake. I'm at $21/hr total winrate, so I guess it's possible it dips down to $10/hr but I don't think it's likely based on the players in my games. (I understand the small sample size meaning less than a full sample)

Plus, my monthly expenses are covered by my job. So it's not like I'm going pro at 1/2, I'll just be playing it to build a roll for 2/5 and gain more experience at live poker. I really don't see the point in working a second job (to build a roll for 2/5) for, likely, less than what I could make grinding 1/2.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:06 AM   #3557
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If you are beating 1/2 NL and 2/3 NL games for 19bb/hour, why don't you move up to 2/5 NL and 5/10 NL where you can be making some real money?

Personally, I would never bother playing poker again if I didn't expect to have at least a $75 hourly win rate, so I really don't understand you guys who are so happy to keep grinding 1/2 NL and 2/3 NL.

If it is so easy to have such high win rates at those levels, it should also be easy to grind up enough money toove up to serious stakes like 2/5 NL and 5/10 NL quickly. I can guarantee you that 2/5 NL is the very bare minimum stakes on which a poker pro can make a decent living. Everything else below that level is really just "play money" stakes.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:25 PM   #3558
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Personally, I would never bother playing poker again if I didn't expect to have at least a $75 hourly win rate, so I really don't understand you guys who are so happy to keep grinding 1/2 NL and 2/3 NL.
Don't forget that poker can be fun.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:06 PM   #3559
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I haven't had a real job for the last 2 years and last year is when I started playing a ton of 1/2. I do supplement my pokers by buying and selling different goods online.

20k (which wasnt even close to playing full time) is what i made last year from 1/2, it is enough to live meagerly while still growing my BR(one comfortable enough to fall back on for a while if I go busto at poker) albeit slowly while still paying for school. Granted I live in the Midwest where everything is dirt cheap.
I would rather play poker x1000 making $30hr than bust my ass trying to find a job at that rate(not going to happen around here with no special training) let alone working two jobs at 10/hr trying to save 10k
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:32 PM   #3560
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

some people hate having "real jobs"

for those people, playing and earning is much better than any other work option
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:40 PM   #3561
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some people hate having "real jobs"

for those people, playing and earning is much better than any other work option
A larger percentage of these people don't have the discipline to be long term winners. Poker is their excuse for living in their parents basement.

I'm not saying no one does this, just that it's not really like, wow, there's poker, and I'm guaranteed to be so good at it and at managing my money so that I don't need another job ever!

The life leaks that make someone hate work/be a bad employee often manifest as poker leaks.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:43 PM   #3562
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I haven't had a real job for the last 2 years and last year is when I started playing a ton of 1/2. I do supplement my pokers by buying and selling different goods online.

20k (which wasnt even close to playing full time) is what i made last year from 1/2, it is enough to live meagerly while still growing my BR(one comfortable enough to fall back on for a while if I go busto at poker) albeit slowly while still paying for school. Granted I live in the Midwest where everything is dirt cheap.
I would rather play poker x1000 making $30hr than bust my ass trying to find a job at that rate(not going to happen around here with no special training) let alone working two jobs at 10/hr trying to save 10k
I think that's quite reasonable for you, especially as a student. Is that a long-term plan, though?

A lot of people don't start out at your winrate or living a meager lifestyle.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:43 PM   #3563
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some people hate having "real jobs"

for those people, playing and earning is much better than any other work option
yeah, giving life advice is pretty meaningless if you don't know the person's circumstances.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:48 PM   #3564
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I would rather play poker x1000 making $30hr than bust my ass trying to find a job at that rate(not going to happen around here with no special training) let alone working two jobs at 10/hr trying to save 10k
Amen. Even with the run bad, my life right now as a 1/2 grinder is so much more enjoyable than when I was making lawyer money that i can't even describe it.

Money isn't everything. i'm happier scraping by playing poker than i was before by a long shot. If the run bad ever ends I'll be happy as a pig in ****.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:53 PM   #3565
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A larger percentage of these people don't have the discipline to be long term winners. Poker is their excuse for living in their parents basement.

I'm not saying no one does this, just that it's not really like, wow, there's poker, and I'm guaranteed to be so good at it and at managing my money so that I don't need another job ever!

The life leaks that make someone hate work/be a bad employee often manifest as poker leaks.
discipline is learned
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:54 PM   #3566
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I wish I would have been more disciplined to play poker when I was in college. That was back in the days when you could literally *crush* on Party Poker. I made $11k my Senior year and that was mainly though bonus whoring and that sick $1k win (maybe more?) when Joey Porter of the Dolphins picked off a pass from the Steelers in the NFL opener. Some sportsbook offered a sick free bet on that game.

I could have paid off all my student loans and saved up enough to have nice nest egg. It was golden back then.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:58 PM   #3567
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If you are beating 1/2 NL and 2/3 NL games for 19bb/hour, why don't you move up to 2/5 NL and 5/10 NL where you can be making some real money?

Personally, I would never bother playing poker again if I didn't expect to have at least a $75 hourly win rate, so I really don't understand you guys who are so happy to keep grinding 1/2 NL and 2/3 NL.

If it is so easy to have such high win rates at those levels, it should also be easy to grind up enough money toove up to serious stakes like 2/5 NL and 5/10 NL quickly. I can guarantee you that 2/5 NL is the very bare minimum stakes on which a poker pro can make a decent living. Everything else below that level is really just "play money" stakes.
Because in many markets this isn't as attractive an option as you LA people think it is.

There are a lot of casinos where the $2/5 game doesn't run all the time, or when it does there's a single table. Even in rooms where there are a couple of tables, they can be completely reg infested. Thats not to say that all regs are good (they're not), but the $2/5 has a smaller player pool that is on average better than that at the $1/2 game. So you're not easily able to jump in and beat $2/5 for 19bb/hr,maybe you get 10 and it's a wash.

The same goes for $5/10 NL. As far as I know there's only one room that spreads that in the Detroit area, and it doesn't run every day.


I don't really care if you think $1/2 winnings are "play money". Many of us play for recreation as well as for some extra money. Sitting at a game for 8 hours on a Saturday is FUN, regardless of the money. The fact that I take away $10+/hr is enough to cover all of my other hobbies.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:00 PM   #3568
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I think that's quite reasonable for you, especially as a student. Is that a long-term plan, though?

A lot of people don't start out at your winrate or living a meager lifestyle.
Long-term I have no idea what I want to do.
I'm getting a degree in computer sciences; albeit slowly. I'm 23 and still have 3-4 semesters left. Although I've never taken out a student loan, nor am I in any debt. I would hate my life working 9-5 unless I absolutely love my job, which will probably never happen. So honestly, no clue what I'm going to be doing in 5 years.

I've always been pretty frugal. As long as I have a working car, internet, a decent computer, and money to go out and do things every once and a while, I'm content.

And no, I don't live with my parents lol.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:02 PM   #3569
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Amen. Even with the run bad, my life right now as a 1/2 grinder is so much more enjoyable than when I was making lawyer money that i can't even describe it.

Money isn't everything. i'm happier scraping by playing poker than i was before by a long shot. If the run bad ever ends I'll be happy as a pig in ****.
You're an intelligent person making a conscious choice. You're living the life you want. If someone has a problem with that, it's on them, not you.

But, there are many, many people who don't make such a conscious choice.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:06 PM   #3570
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I wish I would have been more disciplined to play poker when I was in college. That was back in the days when you could literally *crush* on Party Poker. I made $11k my Senior year and that was mainly though bonus whoring and that sick $1k win (maybe more?) when Joey Porter of the Dolphins picked off a pass from the Steelers in the NFL opener. Some sportsbook offered a sick free bet on that game.

I could have paid off all my student loans and saved up enough to have nice nest egg. It was golden back then.
Live tables are still essentially like this, it's the hands per hour that hurts.

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I don't really care if you think $1/2 winnings are "play money". Many of us play for recreation as well as for some extra money. Sitting at a game for 8 hours on a Saturday is FUN, regardless of the money. The fact that I take away $10+/hr is enough to cover all of my other hobbies.
This is such a great attitude. When i was practicing law, my winnings amounted to a small fraction of my income, but I always thought, "lol, what other fun hobby can you make money at?" And we used the money to fund other indulgences--all kinds of stuff that was essentially 'free' because poker paid for it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:06 PM   #3571
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Long-term I have no idea what I want to do.
I'm getting a degree in computer sciences; albeit slowly. I'm 23 and still have 3-4 semesters left. Although I've never taken out a student loan, nor am I in any debt. I would hate my life working 9-5 unless I absolutely love my job, which will probably never happen. So honestly, no clue what I'm going to be doing in 5 years.
Have you had any internships/job shadows/experience? That could give you some insight into what you may or may not like.

Good call on no student loans.

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And no, I don't live with my parents lol.
Lol I did when I was your age. I had a real job by then, too. It was awesome being able to save for a down payment on my own place. You can't beat free.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:14 PM   #3572
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Have you had any internships/job shadows/experience? That could give you some insight into what you may or may not like.

Good call on no student loans.



Lol I did when I was your age. I had a real job by then, too. It was awesome being able to save for a down payment on my own place. You can't beat free.
Nope, I'm in a small-mid sized town in the Midwest, so those kind of things are few and far between. I think a lot of it for me comes down to motivation. I basically know I'm going to hate working at any job where I don't do what I want, when I want lol(which is what I've basically done since I was 16-weird because my parents never just gave me money-I've always had some sort of weird income since I was 16, with a few jobs in between- but they never lasted more than 3 months). But the sad truth is, I'm going to more than likely have to do that eventually. So there is really no reason for me to hurry up on my degree. (I guess the only reason to hurry would be to get the part I hate out of the way, and maybe hopefully eventually lead up to moving onto some sort of business I operate on my own)

I lived with rents as long as I could, but I've moved around a bit to a few different schools, then moved back in until I was 21. I have a 4BR house with 3 roomates and rent(utilities included) is usually only 500ish, so it's not too bad.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:14 PM   #3573
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I think anyone thinking about playing for a living should finish their education. It always gives you options down the road, especially a STEM degree. It kind of goes hand and hand with poker as well.

I do the 9-5 grind, but I have a job that is low-stress and pays well. If I had a job that I absolutely hated, I would consider playing for a living. But I would probably just find another job. I really like the company I am at now though and hope to build a career here.

Everyone is different in that regard. But I think we all share a passion for poker. We just take different paths to get there.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:16 PM   #3574
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This is such a great attitude. When i was practicing law, my winnings amounted to a small fraction of my income, but I always thought, "lol, what other fun hobby can you make money at?" And we used the money to fund other indulgences--all kinds of stuff that was essentially 'free' because poker paid for it.
I never knew home improvement was fun until I could do it for free. It used to be just a sunken cost on the ol' home and usually a last resort.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:28 PM   #3575
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I never knew home improvement was fun until I could do it for free. It used to be just a sunken cost on the ol' home and usually a last resort.
When I first started winning serious cash on party, I went jewelry shopping for my wife. Stocked up for the next few milestones, and for her next Xmas, anniversary, mother's day and birthday she always had a present addressed from "the fish at Party Poker." that was pretty awesome.

One day we were out shopping for a bedroom set, and she fell in love with one. She's standing there looking at it, and says "it's too expensive." it was about $600 less than I had on party at the moment, so I said, "no it's not--it's free."
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