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Old 07-02-2021, 07:34 PM   #25526
spikeraw22
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Too many dick pics mixed in to recreate I think.
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Old 07-08-2021, 03:07 PM   #25527
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I record sessions on the Colornote app and usually don't move them to Excel until April 14th.
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Old 07-14-2021, 06:18 PM   #25528
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Pfff, lost €1500 (7.5 BI's) over the last 15 hours of play in my 1/1 games.
4 sessions: -400, -200, -600 and -300

Pretty hand dead in the first and last sessions.
The -600 session I played terribly (the JTs hand)

Been running into some beats as well.
Made several bad calls too.

I'm still up quite a bit, so not too tilted.
Now I'm winning €22/h over 140 hours.

Bankroll is at €5150 so nothing to worry about just yet.
Might set a my stop-loss at €400 if I lose some more.
If I lose like another 1000, I'll probably start buying in for 150.

Was kinda hoping to get to an €8k roll asap, so I could go play the 2/4 casino games, which is the lowest stake offered in Belgium.
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Old 07-14-2021, 06:47 PM   #25529
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Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
Pfff, lost €1500 (7.5 BI's) over the last 15 hours of play in my 1/1 games.
4 sessions: -400, -200, -600 and -300

Pretty hand dead in the first and last sessions.
The -600 session I played terribly (the JTs hand)

Been running into some beats as well.
Made several bad calls too.

I'm still up quite a bit, so not too tilted.
Now I'm winning €22/h over 140 hours.

Bankroll is at €5150 so nothing to worry about just yet.
Might set a my stop-loss at €400 if I lose some more.
If I lose like another 1000, I'll probably start buying in for 150.

Was kinda hoping to get to an €8k roll asap, so I could go play the 2/4 casino games, which is the lowest stake offered in Belgium.
sample size is important, 140 hours is basically nothing, I've won $20,000 over 115 hours and then broken even for the next 200 hours playing in the same game (2/5), the variance in poker is hard to overstate
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Old 07-14-2021, 06:50 PM   #25530
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

-6k in the last 17 hours.

Fun times. Do I win a prize?
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Old 07-14-2021, 06:57 PM   #25531
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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
-6k in the last 17 hours.

Fun times. Do I win a prize?
Congrats Mr. JOTS you have officially won the skwid buys you a drink next time you are both in Las Vegas at the same time. Please save this poast and remind skwid he owes you a cold one due to horrible runbad.

Hope it turns soon mang!
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Old 07-14-2021, 07:00 PM   #25532
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Congrats Mr. JOTS you have officially won the skwid buys you a drink next time you are both in Las Vegas at the same time. Please save this poast and remind skwid he owes you a cold one due to horrible runbad.

Hope it turns soon mang!

Ty sir! Appreciate it

3 set over sets in there as well as a some other ridiculousness that is frustrating but part of the game
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Old 07-14-2021, 07:07 PM   #25533
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Ty sir! Appreciate it

3 set over sets in there as well as a some other ridiculousness that is frustrating but part of the game
Absolutely brotha! Running bad at pokerz is just about the loneliest most frustrating thing. Stay focused and know u gots a cold one waiting for you when we meet up in vegas
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Old 07-14-2021, 07:36 PM   #25534
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Originally Posted by Ranma4703 View Post
sample size is important, 140 hours is basically nothing, I've won $20,000 over 115 hours and then broken even for the next 200 hours playing in the same game (2/5), the variance in poker is hard to overstate
Yah I know, just needed to vent a bit
I'd sign up for 20k over 315 hours though

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
-6k in the last 17 hours.

Fun times. Do I win a prize?
Auch, part of the game, but still sucks
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Old 07-15-2021, 11:09 AM   #25535
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
-6k in the last 17 hours.

Fun times. Do I win a prize?
If playing 5K/10K, no.

Otherwise, probably yes.

GI'mexactlybreakevenovermylast494days!G
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Old 07-25-2021, 11:20 AM   #25536
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

What's a good stop-loss and win-stop?
Let's assume for a decent winning player, maybe around 5bb/h

I'm currently using a stop-loss of 2 or 3 BI's depending on how I feel.
I definitely notice myself tilting a bit (not paying as much attention, feeling bad and bored, ...) once I lose my 2nd BI. Might just need to work on that so I can continue playing well no matter how much I lose.


As a win-stop, I wonder if it's even a good idea to have one and what I should base it on.

Say my bankroll is 20 BI's, so 4000 for a 2/2 game where I buy in for 200.
I sit down with 5% of my roll.
Would a win-stop of like 10-20% be reasonable?
Say I run my 200 up to 800, that's now nearly 20% of my roll (17% actually)

If we turn that around, sitting down at a table with 20% of your roll would be an insanely dumb thing do to.
Does that make it logical to get up once you have 20% of your roll in front of you?


My goal is to get to a 50 BI bankroll, from there I can obviously stay at the table much much longer, since I would basically have nearly 0% chance to go broke.
And then start to build up a 50 BI bankroll for 2/5 and maybe eventually 5/10.


Or is setting a win-stop just going to lose me insane amounts of $/h since I'd be playing deeper, everyone else is playing deeper as well the later the night goes.
(I'm playing home games mostly, not sure if this is the same in casino games.)

I've read someone post here that quitting when you're up results in you eventually becoming a losing player, since you'll never be able to make up for big losses if you never go for big wins. Not sure how I feel about that.
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Old 07-25-2021, 01:35 PM   #25537
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
What's a good stop-loss and win-stop?
Let's assume for a decent winning player, maybe around 5bb/h

I'm currently using a stop-loss of 2 or 3 BI's depending on how I feel.
I definitely notice myself tilting a bit (not paying as much attention, feeling bad and bored, ...) once I lose my 2nd BI. Might just need to work on that so I can continue playing well no matter how much I lose.


As a win-stop, I wonder if it's even a good idea to have one and what I should base it on.

Say my bankroll is 20 BI's, so 4000 for a 2/2 game where I buy in for 200.
I sit down with 5% of my roll.
Would a win-stop of like 10-20% be reasonable?
Say I run my 200 up to 800, that's now nearly 20% of my roll (17% actually)

If we turn that around, sitting down at a table with 20% of your roll would be an insanely dumb thing do to.
Does that make it logical to get up once you have 20% of your roll in front of you?


My goal is to get to a 50 BI bankroll, from there I can obviously stay at the table much much longer, since I would basically have nearly 0% chance to go broke.
And then start to build up a 50 BI bankroll for 2/5 and maybe eventually 5/10.


Or is setting a win-stop just going to lose me insane amounts of $/h since I'd be playing deeper, everyone else is playing deeper as well the later the night goes.
(I'm playing home games mostly, not sure if this is the same in casino games.)

I've read someone post here that quitting when you're up results in you eventually becoming a losing player, since you'll never be able to make up for big losses if you never go for big wins. Not sure how I feel about that.
I think a good stoploss/win-stop is related to when you are unable to play your A-game anymore due to x amount of reasons. Some people go warm after losing 3 buyins,some can keep playing good +EV poker after busting 5 buyins.

You really need to exercise some good self assesment when playing this game.

Personally i dont have a set stoploss or winstop,i make the decision then and there in the game. If i feel i dont want to be at the table after losing 3 buyins,i leave. Other times i can easily keep reloading after losing 5 buyins. Sometimes i get scared of losing a big stack after winning big, other times i dont care and keep playing good fearless winning poker.

Sent fra min SM-G991B via Tapatalk
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Old 07-25-2021, 01:43 PM   #25538
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
What's a good stop-loss and win-stop?
Let's assume for a decent winning player, maybe around 5bb/h

I'm currently using a stop-loss of 2 or 3 BI's depending on how I feel.
I definitely notice myself tilting a bit (not paying as much attention, feeling bad and bored, ...) once I lose my 2nd BI. Might just need to work on that so I can continue playing well no matter how much I lose.


As a win-stop, I wonder if it's even a good idea to have one and what I should base it on.

Say my bankroll is 20 BI's, so 4000 for a 2/2 game where I buy in for 200.
I sit down with 5% of my roll.
Would a win-stop of like 10-20% be reasonable?
Say I run my 200 up to 800, that's now nearly 20% of my roll (17% actually)

If we turn that around, sitting down at a table with 20% of your roll would be an insanely dumb thing do to.
Does that make it logical to get up once you have 20% of your roll in front of you?


My goal is to get to a 50 BI bankroll, from there I can obviously stay at the table much much longer, since I would basically have nearly 0% chance to go broke.
And then start to build up a 50 BI bankroll for 2/5 and maybe eventually 5/10.


Or is setting a win-stop just going to lose me insane amounts of $/h since I'd be playing deeper, everyone else is playing deeper as well the later the night goes.
(I'm playing home games mostly, not sure if this is the same in casino games.)

I've read someone post here that quitting when you're up results in you eventually becoming a losing player, since you'll never be able to make up for big losses if you never go for big wins. Not sure how I feel about that.
Final paragraph is nonsense. If you’re profitable at 100BB then obviously leaving when you’re deep can’t turn you into a losing player.

Good players shouldn’t need a stop loss. Strong mental game and being good at self evaluation are traits you need to be successful. I’ll leave if I feel I’m playing poorly for whatever reason but the only reason to set a stop loss would be if you have no self control and/or ability to self evaluate.

Stop win kinda makes sense for bankroll reasons but it’s more accurate to do a real time evaluation of the game. There’s clearly no need to get up with 20% of your roll on the table if effective stacks are much much less than that, or if the one or two players that do cover you are extremely ABC and on your right.
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Old 07-25-2021, 02:02 PM   #25539
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Kind of makes me chuckle when someone calls something non-sense while making a non-sensical statement.

Profitable at 100bb means exactly nothing...unless you always remain at 100bb.

If a good player doesn't need a stop loss, why would that same good player need a stop win?

Just think about it. If you have lost 20% of your BR, but somehow you are still playing good, you should still keep playing - according to you.

The same rationale applies if you have 20% of your roll on the table and you are still playing good, why would you stop playing? Worst case, you lose that 20%...which is the same exact BR scenario you would be in with a stop loss, except it's actually less than the 20% of your BR when you sat down.

But somehow you see the two scenarios as logically different.

Don't get me wrong, many poker players are non-logical and it's perfectly ok.
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Old 07-25-2021, 04:14 PM   #25540
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Originally Posted by poke4fun View Post
Kind of makes me chuckle when someone calls something non-sense while making a non-sensical statement.

Profitable at 100bb means exactly nothing...unless you always remain at 100bb.

If a good player doesn't need a stop loss, why would that same good player need a stop win?

Just think about it. If you have lost 20% of your BR, but somehow you are still playing good, you should still keep playing - according to you.

The same rationale applies if you have 20% of your roll on the table and you are still playing good, why would you stop playing? Worst case, you lose that 20%...which is the same exact BR scenario you would be in with a stop loss, except it's actually less than the 20% of your BR when you sat down.

But somehow you see the two scenarios as logically different.

Don't get me wrong, many poker players are non-logical and it's perfectly ok.
Are you the person who said you'll be a losing player if you quit early when you're up?

Absolutely everything I said is reasonable and if you can't see the value in my free advice, your loss. I'd be happy to elaborate to anybody who doesn't intentionally act like a dick.
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Old 07-25-2021, 05:22 PM   #25541
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How am I acting like a dick?

BR % matters when you are winning, but it doesn’t when you are losing?

Calling that out makes me a dick?
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Old 07-25-2021, 08:18 PM   #25542
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
What's a good stop-loss and win-stop?
Let's assume for a decent winning player, maybe around 5bb/h

I'm currently using a stop-loss of 2 or 3 BI's depending on how I feel.
I definitely notice myself tilting a bit (not paying as much attention, feeling bad and bored, ...) once I lose my 2nd BI. Might just need to work on that so I can continue playing well no matter how much I lose........
As in everything in poker, it depends. Some "decent winning players" are highly susceptible to tilt, some are not.

Some "decent winning players" are very aware of when they are having a bad day from bad play(we all have bad play days) and some can't recognize their bad play until it's too late (reviewing hands mentally on the drive home).

Short answer: stick to 2-3 BI's like you're currently doing.

Take some time and review days when you were down 2-3 buy ins but still continued. Did things improve? My stats show ~no improvement in these circumstances, with actual overall a continued decrease in my BB/hr stats compared to my average BB/hr. (I have averaged ~10BB/hr live over last 14 years with a 2 BI stop loss limit)
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Old 07-25-2021, 08:34 PM   #25543
Gor24do
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hello all, used to be a breakeven/losing player until I started learning basic strategy/ learning GTO which is when I started using twoplustwo (thank you all for the feedback and help) and started actively listening to Solve4Why and other related podcasts. Have been studying sizing on every street and been briefly studying charts and spots and have made huge calls/folds where they seemed like the really mattered unlike prior to that when I was playing call with any two cards in my top 30-50% of range and play bingo.

Been keeping track of stats on PokerIncome app since I began a full-time job out of school in June 2020, and have officially just hit my first big milestone of 5 figures:

Current stats:
P/L:+10,754
$/hr: 33.00
$/Session: 104.41
Duration: 325 hrs, 51 min
Cashed: 65/103 (63%)

This is all of a mix between 1/3, 2/3, 2/5 and occasionally 5/5, where max buy-ins vary from 300, 500, 600 and 1000 depending on location.

Ever since this period began, I had always topped off to max stack after taking a hit as that has vastly improved my win rate.

Should being a winning player be sustainable for me? Even though I officially only have ~325 logged hours and approximately 3k in losses from prior to June 2020, where I was playing "bingo" instead of actual cards. Recently, just moved and have been actively playing in a 2/3 600 max game, which I feel very comfortable with where it is deep enough that big stacks in the lowest no-limit game are still on the table and lots of chips are able to flow into the pot.
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Old 07-26-2021, 12:53 AM   #25544
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor24do View Post
Hello all, used to be a breakeven/losing player until I started learning basic strategy/ learning GTO which is when I started using twoplustwo (thank you all for the feedback and help) and started actively listening to Solve4Why and other related podcasts. Have been studying sizing on every street and been briefly studying charts and spots and have made huge calls/folds where they seemed like the really mattered unlike prior to that when I was playing call with any two cards in my top 30-50% of range and play bingo.

Been keeping track of stats on PokerIncome app since I began a full-time job out of school in June 2020, and have officially just hit my first big milestone of 5 figures:

Current stats:
P/L:+10,754
$/hr: 33.00
$/Session: 104.41
Duration: 325 hrs, 51 min
Cashed: 65/103 (63%)

This is all of a mix between 1/3, 2/3, 2/5 and occasionally 5/5, where max buy-ins vary from 300, 500, 600 and 1000 depending on location.

Ever since this period began, I had always topped off to max stack after taking a hit as that has vastly improved my win rate.

Should being a winning player be sustainable for me? Even though I officially only have ~325 logged hours and approximately 3k in losses from prior to June 2020, where I was playing "bingo" instead of actual cards. Recently, just moved and have been actively playing in a 2/3 600 max game, which I feel very comfortable with where it is deep enough that big stacks in the lowest no-limit game are still on the table and lots of chips are able to flow into the pot.

Congrats on the results! It's likely you are a winner. Based on the sample size, I'd feel pretty confident saying you're break-even at worst. 325 hours could be less than 10k hands, which is why it's too early to get an idea of what your actual WR is (could be -50 cents/hr, could be $60/hr). Winning ~7bb/hr over 325 hours would be rare for someone playing a losing strategy though. If I had to spitball based of the description, I think someone who's starting to study the game and is seeing some early success is likely in the 0-4bb/hr range overall. So to answer your question, I think being a winning player at live-low stakes is sustainable. It's likely you're running pretty well too. I think it's too early to think about what your actual winrate is though because you're still learning. Your potential will only increase as you study more. If you're at 2bb/hr now, in a month or three you could hit 4bb/hr. Six months later, 6bb/hr, a year later 8bb/hr. (At least in terms of skill. Even crushers have hundreds of hours of break-even stretches) I'd just keep studying and playing, not worrying about immediate results. At 1k hrs you'll have a better idea of what this game is about. I'd also recommend ditching anything Berkey related. CLP or Upswing would be better sites to give your money to imo.
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Old 07-26-2021, 08:54 AM   #25545
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I know 18 sessions is ~nothing for live poker sample size, but I just went on an 11 session win streak followed by 7 losing sessions (and counting), plus bubbling a Big O tournament (in 3rd) that the top 2 chopped for 1k each. I know rationally this sample means nothing and I’m still up plenty from the winstreak, but I noticed yesterday it was starting to get to me and I was more stressed out at the table than enjoying myself. Will probably take a break for a couple weeks and see if I can reset.
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Old 07-26-2021, 09:32 AM   #25546
Yeodan
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfsgf View Post
I know 18 sessions is ~nothing for live poker sample size, but I just went on an 11 session win streak followed by 7 losing sessions (and counting), plus bubbling a Big O tournament (in 3rd) that the top 2 chopped for 1k each. I know rationally this sample means nothing and I’m still up plenty from the winstreak, but I noticed yesterday it was starting to get to me and I was more stressed out at the table than enjoying myself. Will probably take a break for a couple weeks and see if I can reset.
Pretty much the same happened to me.
Just booked my 1st winning session again yesterday after several big losing sessions, it felt great.

It definitely got to me as well, took a few days off to reset but I wanted to get back into the action asap.

Another thing I did was just study more than usual.
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Old 07-26-2021, 11:49 AM   #25547
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
What's a good stop-loss and win-stop?
Let's assume for a decent winning player, maybe around 5bb/h

I'm currently using a stop-loss of 2 or 3 BI's depending on how I feel.
I definitely notice myself tilting a bit (not paying as much attention, feeling bad and bored, ...) once I lose my 2nd BI. Might just need to work on that so I can continue playing well no matter how much I lose.


As a win-stop, I wonder if it's even a good idea to have one and what I should base it on.

Say my bankroll is 20 BI's, so 4000 for a 2/2 game where I buy in for 200.
I sit down with 5% of my roll.
Would a win-stop of like 10-20% be reasonable?
Say I run my 200 up to 800, that's now nearly 20% of my roll (17% actually)

If we turn that around, sitting down at a table with 20% of your roll would be an insanely dumb thing do to.
Does that make it logical to get up once you have 20% of your roll in front of you?


My goal is to get to a 50 BI bankroll, from there I can obviously stay at the table much much longer, since I would basically have nearly 0% chance to go broke.
And then start to build up a 50 BI bankroll for 2/5 and maybe eventually 5/10.


Or is setting a win-stop just going to lose me insane amounts of $/h since I'd be playing deeper, everyone else is playing deeper as well the later the night goes.
(I'm playing home games mostly, not sure if this is the same in casino games.)

I've read someone post here that quitting when you're up results in you eventually becoming a losing player, since you'll never be able to make up for big losses if you never go for big wins. Not sure how I feel about that.
I would suggest do whatever you are comfortable with doing (noting that this won't be the same for everyone).

Me, I pretty much always play to a certain time and very rarely leave before that time.

But if you feel you get tilty and don't play as well after losing some BIs, or if you feel a little uncomfortable with multiple BIs on the table, then no harm in setting win/loss limits for yourself.

The part about "quitting while you're up results in you eventually becoming a losing player" is complete garbage.

Ggoodluck!G
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Old 07-26-2021, 11:58 AM   #25548
gobbledygeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor24do View Post
Should being a winning player be sustainable for me?
You're off to a great start, although over a very small sample size. But it sounds like you are taking a lot of steps to move forward from the previous poker version of yourself, so if you continue doing that there is a decent chance you'll have success moving forward.

Ggoodluck!G
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Old 07-26-2021, 03:29 PM   #25549
browni3141
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by poke4fun View Post
How am I acting like a dick?

BR % matters when you are winning, but it doesn’t when you are losing?

Calling that out makes me a dick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by poke4fun View Post
Don't get me wrong, many poker players are non-logical and it's perfectly ok.
This felt incredibly condescending/sarcastic. I can't think of any reason to say this other than to try to piss me off. Let me know if that's not what you meant.

As for my actual criticism of what you were saying...

Quote:
Just think about it. If you have lost 20% of your BR, but somehow you are still playing good, you should still keep playing - according to you.

The same rationale applies if you have 20% of your roll on the table and you are still playing good, why would you stop playing? Worst case, you lose that 20%...which is the same exact BR scenario you would be in with a stop loss, except it's actually less than the 20% of your BR when you sat down.

But somehow you see the two scenarios as logically different.
They are logically different because mathematically (we're ignoring psychological factors) the prior events of losing 5 buyins don't matter at all when considering buying in for the 6th. It doesn't matter that you've lost 20% of your roll today when considering your next buy-in, which represents significantly less than 20% of your remaining roll. Buying in again is the same as starting a new session on a different day.

When you're up there are valid considerations from a risk management perspective when deciding whether or not to stay. Again, the past events of winning don't really matter, except that they led to you having 20% of your roll at risk. It's the same as buying in fresh for 20% of your roll if that were allowed.

Every decision needs to happen in isolation. The factors that matter are how much money you have in your stack/bankroll right now, not how much you've won or lost already, and the quality/condition of the game you're playing relative to your skill level.
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Old 07-26-2021, 11:41 PM   #25550
Big_Drink
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Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 30
re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I want to post my poker plan and get some advice on you all. Before Black Friday happened I took poker seriously playing 6 max cash games online and was a winner up through 100NL. After online sites shut down I just focused on my full time job as I recently graduated university and poker took a backseat. I had spurts though-out the past 10 years where I played live 1/3 and 2/5 and won but never took it as seriously as I once did. Once COVID happened I deposited some money online poker site and started studying again and worked my way up from 5NL --> 50NL. But last October I ended up withdrawing my whole BR of a few thousand.

As of a month ago I have caught the poker bug again and want to amp up my intensity around poker. I currently have a small amount of money online that I'm building up but my main focus will be live deep stack poker. My plan is to use online poker as practice and refine my play.

My long-term goal is to move up from 1/3 to 2/5 once I feel comfortable both financially and strategy wise. I feel like my fundamentals are good but optimized for 100-150BB play. The past two months I have been playing 1/3 at a local casino and buying in for the max of 200BB. I've played around 90 hours so far and am down around 200BB which is frustrating but I know I'm a winner at the game. My goal is to play once on the weekend between 8-12 hours and have it be a hobby/secondary source of income. I have to establish myself as a winner at 1/3 then use winnings + savings to fund my bankroll for 2/5.

Let me know if you have any thoughts on my plan or if there are any fellow weekend warriors out there. Through research it seems like 1000 hours is a the sample size to determine win rate, that will take me a couple years!

Bonus question: I know this is a loaded question. But since I'm in 90hr breakeven stretch, how long do these last for winning players (say 5BB/hr winners)?
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