Well I mean technically you won that money at the table.

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It's rake. It's just calculated all at once instead of each hand. I mean, technically you won the money that you tipped the dealer from each pot pushed too, but it's just the cost of doing business, so it gets deducted.

Some places in TX have you or at least give you the option to pay time by card

others don’t even allow you to pay time or tip in chips and they have separate chips for that

in theory this is because they’re not allowed to take rake/chips off the table afaik

My room makes you pay up front and you can pay well in advance but for an accurate accounting of your winrate you'd need to include the time charge in your calculations. If you want an accurate win/loss on a particular session then you'd need to apply the time charges that accrued to that session.

In a conventional time game, I just note what I buy in for and what I pick up with, and the time charge gets swept into that. There can be shenanigans like time pots and bomb pots muddying the waters around time collection.

In a TCH-style hourly fee for being in the room, I think I would track my room fees separately.

Finally have enough sample to start talking results a bit. Since I got back into poker in early 2019 and started learning NL I've played 345 hours. My previous poker experience was beating 2/4&3/6 online limit 6-max for $45/hr right before black Friday so I'm not only rusty but learning no limit for first time.

Caveat is that 140ish of these hours where in casinos and a home game pre covid and 200 were what I call "e-live" games post-covid. E-live are private online games I've gotten into with a pool of live recs and no rake (one live pro has snuck in to the bigger pool). E-live can also be anywhere from 40 hands per hour to 130 so each hour of e-live is like 2-3 hours real live. They are... very nice games to play in.

Casino 1/3, +1616 over 90hrs.
Casino 2/5 -2657 over 35hrs.
E-live + home games 1/2 +13,338 over 220hrs.

Not only are the e-live games soft but I started upswing around that time too and I think my game had massive improvements. The valley of this graph is right before I started playing e-live and working through upswing content.

Biggest downswing, +2000 to -4000 near start from Casino and a wild home game play. Also went +11600 to +9700 entering a new e-live situation and getting coolered while building reads on new player pool. Took a bit but I'm finally learning that they really are peeling 2/3 pot bets with only back door flush draws and raising rivers only when they got the goods.

Worst sessions: -2400 at Casino 2/5 and -1300 at Casino 1/3. -885 at e-live 1/2.

I recently showed my wife this graph because I'm open about my results with her and she was shocked by the big downer at start haha. There is probably a post someone can dig up from last year of me asking people how many buy ins they'd light on fire learning a game before admitting they are a fish. I was close to hanging it up there.

I'm building up a bankroll to be able to play casino 2/5 regularly when things go back to normal.

Is 10 full buy-ins enough to play 2/3 live? I have a full time job which gives us a full buy-in each week to put towards the roll. Should I avoid shorthanded? The rake is 10% capped at $20. I suspect we have to play super tight.

Sure, its fine if you have a full time job wich makes you able to refill the roll if **** hits the fan. 10 buyins is plenty in that situation.

Just go ahead and play, get your feet wet. The rake is big, but the game is likely still beatable. If there is many short stacks though, that would give me some concerns.

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If you have a job you only need one, really, but it's nice to have enough to not have to wait for the next paycheck after a bad run.

Whether or not 10 buyins is enough for that depends on factors specific to you. The higher your win-rate and the lower variance style/game you play the fewer buyins you need. The more hours you play the more likely you are to have a bad downswing within a short period of time like a week.

That rake is pretty rough. Your win-rate will probably not be really high if you even win at all, but it should be beatable. Hopefully the skill level of the pool is bad enough to compensate.

Having a full time job which replenishes a full BI each week will likely enable you to play the game forever (win or lose).

How big does the game play? Is the BI capped? Lotta shorter (< 100bb) stacks at the table? Cuz if this game is playing shorter stacked then that rake is brutal cuz most pots won't outrun the rake. Ex. If you play a $200 pot HU (which isn't a large HU pot but it isn't a small one either), 20%+ of your winnings from the hand will be raked, and that's tough to overcome. Super tight (and even tighter) is likely the best method as you simply can't afford to dick around in pots not outrunning the rake from all positions, imo.

GgoodluckG

10 buy in down swings should be uncommon if you are good, but they will absolutely happen. So if you are say a solid winner, let’s say 5bb/hr or 15bb/100 for live, and you play 500 hours, there is a 37% chance of a 1000 bb downswing over a sample of 12,000 hands using a standard deviation of 150.

If I had a full time job I would feel confident playing with 10 buy ins since the likelihood of starting off with the 10 buy in down swing is low, even if it will happen eventually.

Sorry, I meant to write over a 15,000 hand sample.

What is a solid win rate at 2-5 200bb capped game?

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dudes that dont make a ton of mistakes win 6-8 bb per hour
dudes that stomp win 10+

+1 to what squid said. One guy I know who I think plays exceptionally and I trust to give me honest results says he’s ~$55/hr at a 2/5 1000 cap. I’ve never seen him tilt. Game conditions matter a lot as well. I have two rooms with over 1k hours and my winrate is practically double in one of them.

6-8 is a solid pro who knows what he is doing but has too many leaks. Probably a lot of leaks preflop or pays off too many passive recs. They are leaky enough that I would probably notice after seeing them play for a session. 8-10 is very good. 10-12 is crushing. 12+ is probably only realistic if the games are really good or you are a master of live reads.

90% of people or possibly more are losing players though so if you are making any kind of money then that’s pretty solid.

I'm around 6-8 bb per hour rn but my sample size is too small (225 hrs) to make any definitive claims about my win rate. And I do fall under the "makes mistakes" category so very good observation there.

I thought at 200bb capped game some elite players might make well above 10 bb.

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Baleroin1 - I win slightly more than 11 over a very large sample. I have several poker pals who do the same. I have met a couple o dudes over the years who win greater than 15. One in particular was just fcuking dialed in on every hand. I actually did my best to play at his tables to watch and learn.

Yeah, i mean 200 hours is literally nothing. Its just noise at this point, and anything could happen in a 200 hour span.

I dont doubt you are a solid winning player, from what ive seen in the forum you have your head put in a solid space. But 1000 hours is the bare minimum for me regarding any meaningful sample in liveplay.

I agree, 1k hours should be minimum hours to judge anything.

And thanks my guy, appreciate the nice comment.

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I know two players in my player pool that are 15+ bb over a solid sample size.

I play in Cali and its not rare to see a 2-5 table with multiple 2k+ stacks. In fact if you're in the game for 500 its a short stack.


11+ bb is solid though over the course of sample size that you have. I think I should be able to reach 8-10 bb/hour by the end of the year. I'll report back lol.

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It wouldn't surprise me one bit if you are actually a losing player.

Is this what you guys talk about at the poker table?

Good to know?

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The point is that your sample really is tiny. I’ve had 100 hour stretches at $100+ an hour and 250 hour break even stretches.

Yea, said my sample size is too small to deduce anything. The original question was asked to think about a target win rate as I put in more volume, not necessarily to talk about my current win rate.

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You've put in next to no time playing 2/5 and yet you are confident you'll be making 8 to 10 bbs/hr by the end of this year. It just makes no sense.