Playing tight isn't ruining poker. If it were somehow detrimental, it would be 1000th on the list of actions players can take that make poker less fun. There is no winning strategy that involves only playing the nuts or only the top 5% of hands pre-flop.

Everyone on this forum is a turbo nit compared to the player pool.

If you play 1/3 or 1/2 in a large player pool, then being a nit wont really get noticed as there are just too many bad players that play atrocious post flop. You win by nitting it up. They win because they got to gamble for low stakes against other bad players and they didn't feel like they got outclassed by a table full of grinders.

I gurantee if you were playing in a smaller player pool that only ran around whales, you would have a much different approach about "giving action". Even if it was a 1-2 game.

Your 2-5 player pool can't be THAT large where the nittiness of the game doesn't have an affect on whether the fish decide to show up or not. Obviously, if a fish shows up and the game is bad he will donate, but he wont be as likely to come back frequently.

I probably hate losing money more than you do. But if more "TAGS" raised hands like QJo or A9o occasionally, ranges would be a little less snug and people could fight for pots more. Poker is really boring when everyone is has a snug PF hand selection. And this is coming from someone who wins big. Imagine how boring it would be if you were just an average joe who loses 1-2BB's an hour?

Obviously Im not going to raise those hands since nobody else is doing it. But it used to be a lot more common that fish would play these hands. But since they watch everyone else just muck, muck, muck, muck, limp, muck, limp. They adjust and start limping or even folding and now when I pick up a hand like AJ I have to fold to a raise every time, instead of playing a pot and "giving some action" with the chance that Im actually ahead of this guy's range rather than being completely dominated.

I play primarily $5/10/20, with some $5/10, $10/20, and $10/20/40 mixed in. Player pools aren't very big.

Anyone opening A9o in MP is going to get murdered long-term. Maybe that wasn't the example you wanted to use.

Actually I think its perfect.

You dont have to do it EVERY TIME you get dealt A9. Im not accusing you of this, but some poker players play like robots. "Wow the pf hand selection sheets says this is a fold, so gotta fold".

You could do it one time early in the session to iso the biggest fish in the game. Then, if you win the hand with a c-bet or you have to fold your hand you can SHOW YOUR CARDS!!!! (Yes, you dont have to muck every time, you can give false info)

You do this to get the game going if it sucks.

Everyone in the game is now going to have A9o in your range, even though its isn't because you have tightened up.


You could choose other hands like 64s or K6s. Dont raise with it every time! maybe not even once a session. But show a c-bet bluff with a junk hand to tilt people and put some peer pressure on them to not be nits.

You are pretty wrong about this.

If a game sucks (defined as most players are playing fairly well), opening -EV hands isn't going to make it better, unless you mean better for other players, at your expense. I played in a $10/20/40 at Bellagio last year with 7 pros. You know how to make that game better? Leave and find a different game.

Most winning players at high stakes actually play fairly "robotically" pre-flop, for good reason. One of the biggest differences between high-stakes winners and low-stakes winners is that the former group tends to be much more disciplined pre-flop.

The problem with opening A9o isn't A9o in itself (although it's a pretty terrible hand). The real question is, if you are opening that hand, what are you doing with A8o? A5o? KTo? K6s? 96s? Before you know it, you are "randomly" opening with a 40% range in a spot where you should probably open a 15% range, and I shouldn't have to explain to you why a competent TAG on the button is going to eat you alive with that range. You say you do this maybe once a session, but more often than not you aren't going to see the showdown with it, or even win the hand to begin with because you have a bad hand that can't profitably play past the flop in most situations (or pre-flop if you get 3-bet).

I maintain my position that "giving action" as defined by playing -EV hands for sake of image isn't a smart thing to do if your goal is to win at poker.

I don't necessarily agree with bodybuilder's theories but there's a big difference between raising A9o once, showing it, then going back to normal (which I think he's advocating) and letting hands like K6s, 96s creep into your range as a matter of course. In fact if you extrapolate that from seeing one open raise with A9o then his plan is working.

If opening with A9o was truly a 0EV move I might just buy that hypothesis, but you've already cost yourself money with that open, so yeah, it's a no from me.

As a practical matter, I guarantee that you aren't doing this with only A9o if you think this is a fine play to make with A9o, which was my point with hands like K6s and 96s.

IMO, if the game has a bunch of bad players limp-calling pre with like 69o or A6o (or calling crap like that from the blinds), then opening A9o, especially after some limpers is perfectly fine, and I think profitable - hell i’ll even open A7o and A6o sometimes if I think I’m likely to end up with a slight range advantage in position against several players, and if I think I can get away with it (at some point, better players will start noticing I’m opening way too wide and attack me more with 3bets). In higher stakes games without so many of those very bad players, or where there’s an aggressive 3bet dynamic, or when players are just better post flop, A9o should be hitting the muck much more often... I think there is an enormous gap in the profitability of a hand like A9o dependent on the player pool.

The "robotic" players are scaring away the fish with their PF play. That's the problem.

I sat in a 5/10 game not too long ago. I came in behind the button. During the orbit, I saw only 1 PF limp, from an UTG player (probably a pocket pair). It was either a chop, a raise and take it. And one hand was a raise, BB 3-bet and PF raiser folds.

I immediately got up and left.

I was a 2/5 player taking a shot. A very good pro could have taken me to school in that game, but never got the opportunity since he wore his "pro badge" with his tight/aggressive play and serious demeanor.

If I would have just seen a few hands go raise/call/call, I would have stayed longer and actually tried to win in the game.

Most fish wont do what I do and snap leave. But they still wont like the experience and probably never play 5/10 again. Which really hurts the high stakes eco-system.

You discount "image" in poker, without taking into account what gets customers in the games.

You might not last as a pro in the next ten years if you continue to play as a PF nit, unless your drop down in stakes. Expect to see a lot of your customers playing in private games.

I am in this boat as well. The only difference is Im not like some posters on here who are preaching to fold suited broadways in EP and limping in with all of their hands when they are deepstacked. Then they either l/f or l/rr to some atrocious sizing that discourages fish from opening any non premiums.

Im not blindly raising A9o or 96 or any other speculative hand. But there are factors like the game getting short and a big fish is in the game. If you just keep folding and folding like everyone else at the table then this guy is getting no action and the pots are tiny. I want to wake him up from his little coma and get him engaged so he will start paying off my bets and not do the opposite like limp/folding because he sees other players doing it.

Other weak/tight fish can now become loose/passives once they see you were the PF raiser and had a garbageish type hand. The game gets a lot juicier and we can back to nitting it up and nobody will notice.

Did I ever advocate folding suited broadways in any position or open-limping at all?

Please tell me more about games which you don't play in but I play in. Lol.

I didn't say that YOU advocated it. I said other posters.

Im not lecturing you about to how to beat 5/10/20. I gave you perspective from a potential new customer to your game that the style of play reeked of a grinder fest.


If some guys were willing to be a littles less grindery and not folding decent hands when it gets folded to them, then the customer experience wouldn't be so god awful.


Guys like Gobbledygeek, no offense to him, preach this nittery, which I think is terrible because a bunch of potential customers are going to get put off by poker if they are playing at a nitty table full of guys limp/folding hands as strong as KQs and only calling with a set mining hand. He can get away with being such a nit ONLY BECAUSE the 1/3 player pool has so many fish that are clueless and the stakes are dirt cheap.

If your game is action packed and juicy, then of course you can get away with being a nit because everyone is having fun and nobody even notices you.

But I know that grinders are never going to see the big picture. Just dont blame me for there being no more fish left to play with at the higher levels. I didn't kill the game like you and your peers did. Maybe you can start a vlog or offer free coaching as well....

I don't agree with GG's strategy. You are kind of preaching to the choir on that issue.

I don't think you should ever fold "decent hands." A9o is not my idea of a decent hand. If your idea of "killing the game" is folding unprofitable hands, I don't know what to tell you.

The game will always get progressively worse as that's just the natural evolution of any game (towards greater skill and superior strategy). Many rec players have indeed gone to private games, but private games have their own issues (more risky in terms of security and fairness), so many recs will continue to play in public casinos for that reason.

For me most of bodybuilder's complaints boil down to "it's less enjoyable for people to play in a game where everyone is attempting to play well, so don't play well if you want the game to survive".

If you want to be the guy playing worse than everyone else in order to keep the game going, there's nothing stopping you. But getting upset at others who are simply playing their game is lol.

I mean, you should be allowed to play any game you want so long as you're not a dick and everything you do is well within the accepted culture of the room (when in Rome), no?

ETA: And I fold most suited broadway in EP. No one at the table knows I do this. And I'm allowed to. Get over yourself, imo.

Gwinrate=7bb/hr,justfornon-banningpurposesG

LOL bodybuilder. You admit GG's win rate is a top win rate, then you call his style of play parasitic.

So what if it's parasitic? Are we here to make money or are we here to spew money cause it's "good for the game"? Any player that's better than me at the table I consider HORRIBLE for the game cause them just being at the table reduces my win rate and increases my variance by a significant amount especially if they have position on me and are actively 3 betting me. Am I gonna complain that they're a parasite for the game? No. They're there to make money and I respect that.

Bodybuilder, you snap got up because a bunch of 5/10 pros didn’t all start playing -EV just because you sat down? It sounds like they were all playing pretty fundamentally sound. What exactly did you expect the experience to be like?

Not only that, but whenever a $2/5 shot-taker sits in my game and tries to nit it up and double up vs a fish, we are HAPPY if that guy leaves, lol.

yah sorry Bodybuilder, when I say "give action" i'm talking about getting the straddle going, agreeing to 72o type games if the recs want, 0ev flips etc etc basically things to keep the game fun and vibes gambly if possible. also just engaging in conversation and being nice goes a long way.

that's why I don't agree with reading a book / iPad at the table - just makes you look disinterested and an obvious grinder/nit. I do get that it's probably much tougher for pros that have to put in many more hours per year than me, so i do sympathize though.

as long as GG is pleasant at the table and plays fast he is better than a lot of live players even if he is an uber-nit. would much rather have him at my table than people that tank forever, berate players/dealers, don't pay attention etc etc.

And also in the best interest of the game obviously ban:

- poker books
- poker forums
- discussing of HHs with friends
- thinking in general

G7bb/hrwinrate,multiplegiraffesincomingin37playinghours !G

The single best thing for the game is the straddle, imo.

Fundamentally correct play in a 2 blind NLHE game is simply pretty tight. You aren't making the game better opening crap in MP, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. A 3 blind game incentivizes you to play more hands out of the blinds as it's mathematically correct to do so. Although you do have to open tighter from the button vs 3 blinds compared to vs 2 blinds.

ya regs/pros that refuse to straddle when the majority of the table wants to are way way worse than regs/pros that play super tight.

GG is basically my ideal player to have on the left if I could cherry pick a line-up.

Agreed, I mostly look to have exactly the same type of player on my left as well (especially if they are playing with a non-large stack), with possibly the only exception being that I'm guessing (???) I would be slightly more non ABC / straightforward / never getting out-of-line postflop than some I would rather have (although likely not by much).

Gwinratesarefun!G

Anyone good at reading giraffes wanna tell me what this one means? This is 820 hours mostly 1/3 with a little 2/5 and PLO mixed in. Analyze me!



Thanks!

GG, wouldn't your perfect player on your left be someone who raises too much pre-flop? If you're not going to do any opening you'd want to have last option on someone who does. This seems pretty obvious to me.

I expected this but I thought there might be one or two fishy players in the game.

Everyone folding preflop is not a poker game.