I think addressing these spots is probably the best thing to do, really. I thought about starting a thread but I'm not sure if it's appropriate.

I had one the other day. It was just like a video. Bad rec who played half his hands limped. Folded to me. Button and blinds were really tight. I raised SCs. Everyone folded to the limper. He called. He donked the flop, which gave me a gutshot and backdoor flush. It was a textbook float spot, given my hand and the situation. The turn was an ace and gave me an FD. He check folded.

I paid 20% of my winnings to rake and tip. If I'd raised a dollar more pre, I'd have paid another dollar. This was with no promo drop.

Is this a winning play?

Can this be discussed a bit more? I currently live in an area that only supports $1/2 or the very occasional $2/5, but I'm traveling to an area that has a wide selection of $2/5 and I'll have a few days to play but am debating if I should play 1/2 or 2/5. I am adequately rolled for a $2/5 game but am curious the general thought on how much better the players are at $2/5. I know this is a tough question to give a quantitative answer to, but just interested in some different perspectives.

You can buy in @ Harrahs in Atlantic City for $500 into a 1/2NL game. Rake is $4 & $2 for BBJ & no flop/no drop.

At the Borgata, it's $4 max rake & $1 BBJ but max buy-in is $300

At the MGM @ National Harbor MD, where I play 1/3NL, it's $500 max buy-in, $5 rake & $2 for BBJ taken out at $10 & $30 & no flop/no drop.

Most of the players at MGM have money, so even though they may buy-in for $300, they have several bullets in their pockets.

How often do you get on a table where someone burns through $1K+? I can find a table like that most nights. Pots of $200+ quite often.

Does that sound like your poker room?

Which is EXACTLY why I've been so confidently preaching that high WR's are super attainable in 1/2. fwiw I also think most people at 2/5 are also bad, but they at least have a clue, whereas the majority of 1/2 players are just terrible and never adjust so you can exploit them over and over (okay, not NEVER, but you get the point).

Guy limps [1/3NL] @ MGM National Harbor, MD: You raise to $18 limper calls.

$40 - $4 rake $2 BBJ = $34 [$18 yours]

Flop: XXX

V bets $20, you call, last $1 in rake taken Pot $73 [$38 of it yours]

You take it down on the turn.

You profit $73 - your $38 = $35 net profit + the $5 + $2 = $42. 7/42 = 17%

I've won $300 in promo money this week & last year I won ~$3.3K in promo money, so can you really count the BBJ as rake that you never get back?

Also, if you're playing at a 1/3NL at the MGM where the avg pot is $100, you're a fool, because there are 18 1/3NL games going & somewhere in that room are games with pots that avg $200+.

Not intended to be a brag, but my WR is 70% higher over the last 2+ years playing $2/5 exclusively than it was playing $1/2 and some $2/5. I'm not trying to share my WR but based on the numbers thrown around here I'm an well-above-average winning player. This is in spite of a *gasp* RAKE INCREASE!!!! (now $5+2)



I've worked hard off the table and I'm a noticeably better player than I was in 2016. The players are not a "bit better" at 2/5 in my location than they were even a few years ago. The rec players and even the regs just change their leaks. First they didn't fold, then they didn't call, now they over c-bet. It'll be some sort of new bad leak that pops up in the future.

To be fair to GG, 100bb cap games are tougher to beat, especially when not everybody is buying in to the max and topping off. But the games are not in my opinion significantly worse/tougher at the $5 blind level and below. However, you gotta put work in and make other adjustments. I play $1/2 when waiting for $2/5 and it is remarkably similar to GG's game. It's beatable and beatable for me for a high WR compared to when I was eking out a mediocre WR/hour when $1/2 was my primary game. What's the cap? Who knows? Could be 10, could be 15 bigs. But it's beatable for a good clip.

If you're someone who's only making 3-5BB or less at 1/2 or 1/3 over any significant sample, you haven't put the work in to improve enough to win more. It's that simple.

all of this WR discussion assumes Hero is always playing the same regardless of external factors.

personal example here:

-Was working night shift for awhile. Saturday night to Thursday morning was my work week, on a 11pm-8am shift. So on Thursdays i’d go home, sleep maybe 4 hours then head to the casino before rush hour started. My WR for Thursday was only 2.75bb/hr vs. Friday and Saturday where i had slept the night before and was at 10bb/hr, over 150 hours for Thurs/Sat and 210 hours for Fri.

Obv weekdays a bit different so not a perfect example but still valid imo, just amount of sleep can do things to WR.

It seems like the crushers ITT can play on a regular schedule, without much outside life interference (squid, Mike, YGO). Whereas a player like GG has a “weekly poker session” that is played when possible and jumps around a lot according to his posts in chat, not necessarily prime hours.

There is a lot of truth to this. I make all kinds of aggro plays that are +EV, now that I play regularly that I never made when I played once in a blue moon. When I was working and played once a month or so, I played very ABC which won consistently but at nowhere near the rate I am able obtain now.

Whats the max buy in? Assuming it is $1000 just buy in for $600-$700. Go for it.

The main difference is the level of aggression you will face. Most 1/2 and 1/3 games have a ton of pre flop limping. You still get this in 2/5 occasionally but you will see a lot more raising and 3bets pre.

My advice as someone who made the jump to playing almost exclusively 2/5 lately (except for when it's not available) is to not change the way you play. Just play your game and make adjustments as you get more comfortable.

I use to think that I had to be more creative and try to make crazy plays at higher levels. It's not the case. Play your game. Be observant and if you need to make any adjustments to your game make them as needed.

The very quick answer to this is that I earn more dollars but less BBs at 2/5 than 1/2. I have had similar issues of 2/5 not running where I live, and I look forward to playing it when I go somewhere it runs. It both improves me as a player and earns me more. It's not the cakewalk that it was during the poker boom, though.

In my transition to $2/$5 NL here are my takeaways, obviously based on my player pool:

1. Less skilled players are markedly better than those at $1/$2 NL.

2. More aggression, i.e. most pots are raised pre, less blind chops (no flop no rake in my game).

3. Pre-slop sizing is smaller on a bb basis. I normally open raise 4 bb in $2/$5 NL, adjusting as table dynamic evolves. In $1/$2 NL I would open 5.5 bbs and go from there.

4. The better players will immediately target the spots, trying to play pots with them. This strategy will inhibit your play, at least initially.

5. Positional awareness is generally better. Even the lesser skilled players will try to steal the blinds from CO/BTN.

6. Playing (or not) hands like ATo/KQo from early position gave me the most problems.

I earn more bbs/hour than I did in $1/$2 NL. Max BI is 200 bbs in my room.

GL!

If there's something even more Sasquatch around here than 10bb+/hr, it's $100K+/yr.

Gnotbuyingwhatyou'resellingG

Come on GG, that's easy. It's only 2000 hours at $2/5 for 10bb/hr.

These two statements seem contradictory to me, no?

GcluelesscontradictorynoobG


These 2 reasons make it make it much more likely that higher winrates are possible at bigger games due to the crippling rake being outrun.

GcluelesscripplingrakenoobG


This is a very good question, imo.

Again, in crippling rake conditions, you have to be that much better than your opponents to have these plays profitable. In games that outrun the rake, it's not nearly as much a concern.

Gunfortunately,likelynottheplaceforitG


No, not at all, and it's also not addressing the conditions I'm addressing (which is high relative rake in low BI games).

FWIW, over time, your rake will definitely go up simply due to inflation and the poker rooms needing to stay ahead of the curve financially. So while they are good now, they can (and will) only get worse.

GcluelessrakenoobG


I've also addressed this in other parts of this thread. Basically, you're assuming there is a big degree of difference in skill level between 1/2 NL tables and 2/5 NL tables. This is really room dependent, but (a) that skill level difference is lessening, and while I'll admit it could definitely still be fairly wide in multi-steak rooms, (b) it is totally non-applicable to rooms that only have 1 steak (I know you likely play in a multi-steak room, but there are *lots* of us that don't).

GcluelesssteaksnoobG


Is it possible your winrate is also higher simply because you are outrunning the rake / small BI cap of your smaller games? (obviously it helps that you've studied and improved your game, not saying that doesn't have a big affect as well)

Your rake in your big game is still less than mine in my small game ($7 + $1, will be moving to $8 + $1 fairly shortly just like other rooms in the area). Have you actually considered how big just a $1 increase in rake in a small BI game has on our bottom line? If you start crunching the numbers, it might surprise you. Actually had a local travelling pro tell me that when the rake increases to $9 (which it inevitably will) in a our $300 max BI game that the game will be unbeatable; I actually don't agree with him, but it definitely will be flat out impossible to crush.

GcluelessrakenoobG

Glol'ed,niceG

If you want to be really really MUBSy GG regarding to the raise in winrate in Deathcabs case, we could just shut him down on it by saying he is on a lifetime heater and dont realize how good he is sunrunning.

I've said nothing of the sort and even noted that his studying / hard work has undoubtedly paid off in spades.

What I'm saying in that a high relative raked / small BI game is extremely difficult to crush and to prove me otherwise (which no one has yet to do).

GcluelessNLnoobG

believe me, the thought crossed my mind

Have you ever asked yourself if it is your ubernitty rock of the century image and constantly weak tight predictable playing style (wich in the next chapter actually helps your opponents making better decisions against you in terms of not paying you off) that is the real problem, and not the rake?

I honestly think seriously asking yourself these kind of questions would help your approach/game and winrates more in the future GG. I am willing to bet a huge amount that if you put wellknown crushers on these forums with a more open aggro game than you have, players that is using a bigger toolbox overall, is gonna achieve a much higher winrate in your games than you do. Because they is gonna employ a strategy and a playing style that is simply gonna force your opponents to make mistakes against them- one way or another.

To be honest i am not even sure how many really really good cash grinders you have ever played with- and in what kind of way they are adjusting in the quarter of a second, and how they are able to destroy table dynamics/spesific villains.

Like I've said over and over Gil, I'm not going to address strat here (it's not the place). I think you're also missing the overall point, which I'll hopefully illustrate below.

In keeping with the thread, here's a very simple thing for people to ponder and I'd be curious as to the numbers you come up with.

Let's say you play in a 1/3 NL game with a $300 max BI (although lots of players BI for $200). Game overall is pretty loose preflop (lotta 6way limped pots and 4way raised pots), but plays a lot tighter postflop (lotta pots ending 3ways or HU by the turn, not a lot of river bets with showdowns). A decent amount of pots (most?) reach $50 - $80 due to this, but often not much more.

So you've got a winrate of x bb/hr with a $5 maximum rake (10%) over some significant time period.

What would your winrate be over that same time period had you played with a $6 maximum rake?

What about a $7 maximum rake?

$8?

Show your math or how you arrived at your estimate before reading the spoiler.



GcluelessNLnoobG

Lol, not touching upon strategy or skillsets-when those factors is highly correlated to achieveable winrates. Game approach, strategy and skillsets is obviously chained together on alot of levels. A player capable of 3 betting light, can as an example force opponents to stackoff wider/fold away too much money/tilt and possibly get them to spew off whole 100 BB buyins. How convinient to just ignore that full discussion when its highly correlated to winrates discussion, but instead cherrypick the aspects that suits your beforehand decided beliefs- and that way continue to drive your stubborn locomotive full speed ahead dont listening to anyone or anybody.

Gil, as much as you accuse me of going circles, I can accuse much of the same.

I asked a very simple question above, that is directly related to winrates.

Any thoughts on it?

Ganyone?G

Pretty new to the forum, but not new to poker. I've been playing exclusively NL Hold'em for a while now the vast majority being 1/2, with some 1/3, 2/5, and 5/5 thrown in. I used to be a consistent internet player back in the day, but don't play online at all anymore. I recently got back to playing regularly.

I still make mistakes of course and am learning something new every day. With that said 8-10 BB/hr has been achievable for me in the games that I play. That's with looking back in hindsight with a clear memory on some very stupid moves that I made. Years ago I used to still tilt slightly.

I think overall the games have gotten a little tougher, but in my room especially on the weekends the games are really good. Even the daytime games with grinding regs are beatable.

In my room a lot of the regs are old-time nits/boring TAGs who are easy to exploit. I see this trend with the younger guys grinding the game as well.

It's obvious to me by the way they play that many of the grinding regs do not do the hard work away from the table. What I mean is practicing hand-reading and dissecting hands/hand ranges slowly piece by piece.

6-way limped pots = lots of opportunities to win 5-6+ BBs preflop. How many of these opportunities are you taking? If your preflop raise with a marginal hand gets called, then you have the opportunity to win even more BBs, and you'll be in a very profitable situation if you are good at knowing which flops to cbet, which cards to double barrel, etc against 2 or 3 or 4 villains. How many of those opportunities to barrel simply because of board texture and your perceived range, more than your actual cards, do you take?

I think you can win more than 10 BBs an hour in a game like this, despite the rake.

your game sucks, stop playing and stop posting. You have not even entertained the thought that any of the experienced players giving you free advice could be right. Your attitude is worse than betgo from the HSMTT forum days.